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Discussion in 'Archive' started by -, Dec 8, 2001.
From the Rocky Mountain News:
I think I'm going to be sick.........obviously consideration isn't given to how he treats his employees. If they knew, I guarantee he wouldn't be winning any awards.
Its unfortunate that treating employees like crap is considered good business.
There was a time in business that bosses took care of the employees who took care of them.
Times have changed. I wish we could turn back time.
It use to be we payed a good price for good service, now we pay a good price for service, and take what they give us, most of the time if we like it or not.
I personally know 3 people who work for the DiSH Network -- or at least admit to it. One is a director level, one is in IT, (both in Denver) and the other works at the Cheyenne facility. All three of them speak highly of the company and of working for Charlie.
The guy who works at the Cheyenne facility has several years with the company dating back to when the uplink facility there first started to ramp up. He jokes on Mike Dugan constantly and complains about having to commute the 100 miles to Cheyenne each week (he and his family live in Denver). But, other than that they all seem to agree that the company and management are better than average.
I think that his image to consumers is much more tarnished based on broken promises, lack of compassion towards ongoing problems, etc. But, you've got to hand it to him strictly as a businessman coming from almost nowhere and now leading a billion dollar empire.
I'll admit that I'm not entirely happy with him and company, but you've got to give him credit for what is/has accomplished against many odds.
When someone has accomplished what Charlie has, pretty much single handed, it is natural that he would be the target of attacks from all sides. I take all comments about employee problems with a very large grain of salt. He wouldn't have gotten where he is by treating employees as he is accused. Myself, I think a good part of the problem is envy, not only of his accomplishments, but also and mostly of his personal wealth.
.....but until you guys have worked there, I don't see how you can defend the guy. Granted much of the "mistreatment" of employees is not directly from Charlie himself, but from the people below him that handle the day to day issues. Don't tell me the guy doesn't know what goes on. Yes, I worked there and bailed out, thankfully. But I worked under a lot of great people who were chased out because they were free thinkers and had the nerve to stand up to the power-hungry-yet-insecure-with-their-own-jobs managers and higher ups when something wasn't being done right. Charlie and his minions like to fly by the seat of there pants without realizing what it does to the rank and file. People in that company are promoted without having the legitimate experience needed to do their own jobs and it gets too frustrating for the ones that do know what their doing, so they quit. I speak from experience.
If you have a friend that's a director in Denver, then I seriously doubt he/she could get a similar job anywhere else because they aren't qualified. And IT? From what I've heard from departments that have to deal with IT, they don't know there head from there ass.
You can take what I say with a grain of salt since I can't say who I am or what I did there, but I can assure you it's true. That place is BAD news. And I hate seeing bad people get ahead. There are so many good workers that get the shaft while the a**holes get promoted (in any job) and I'm just tired of seeing it happen.
So go on, poeple - keep supporting this jerk and his "wonderful" company. I'd love nothing more than to see Dishes satellites blown out of the sky by a meteroite. My dream is to see everyone at Dish lose their job. Maybe that's harsh, but that's what most of them deserve.
I will have to say that I honestly dont know what the conditions are over there, I have received a few emails from former Dish Network employees who had nothing but bad to say, however every story has 2 sides my feeling is that the place must be ok to work for as people are wanting to work for them.
One thing I don't like is on every Charlie Chat, Charlie always makes fun and puts down his employees. Sometimes his comments are hard to tell if he is joking or not.
I must admit though I have always wanted to sit down and have a beer with Charlie.
Disagree, I must admit that your first paragraph sounds just like the company where I work! Honestly, where in Corporate America do you NOT see such activity occur?
Scott's right, there are two sides to every issue. DiSH has undoubtedly suffered growing pains just like every other upstart on the planet.
Like I said before, I have yet to hear horridly negative comments about that company from any current employees that I am acquainted with. So, I would be hard-pressed to believe such problems are significantly more widespread than all other corporations.
Whenever I encounter a former employee of my company at the mall or wherever, the conversation seems to always start with something like: "Is so and so still a jerk..." or "Are the rumors true? Did he really get promoted?" yada, yada. The key word here is "former." Of course if you leave a company there is a reason that made the company you are leaving less desirable than what you left to go to. So, why should anyone be surprised that you are disgruntled whether it be alot or a little?
PS. I've never known an IT department that had it completely together. Why should the DiSH Network's be any different?
Let's assume for a minute that you folks are competent at your jobs and care about the product you put out. Now I would assume that you work with people that don't deserve to have a job because they really don't know what their doing - and are obvlius to it. Of course those poeple are going to complain - especially in today's job market. They are going to be happy they even had a job because they know they suck at it. It's the people that care about there jobs and are good at them that get frustrated by the morons.
Also realize that Dish is famously cheap when it comes to pay, and I can assure you it shows with the employees. Theyll hire any person that breathes. In fact, they are so desperate for CSR's that even people they hire that flunk the test or smart off to the trainers during training won't get fired. It's almost impossible to get fired from that company as a CSR because there hard to find. But anyone else in the company that shows a little chuzpah is at risk of going bye bye, for one reason or another (because their position can always be filled by promoting an unqualified CSR).
I'm sure other company's are the same or similar. But when I hear about other company's doing things like Charlie does with his, I don't support them either. If I could only tell you what I knew....maybe the company has a 2nd side to my situation, but I assure you, it's not valid at all, and my old boss's that left in a similar way would back me up (and they are very respected people with MUCH better jobs now). If only I could talk.....
Ah, the old "if only I could talk" excuse. If your comments are true, there is no reason you can't talk. Such a comment casts doubt on the rest of your comments.
The "if only I could talk" is hardly an excuse. I know that poeple there read these boards and I'm not about to expose my complaints for them to see. None of you know the players involved, so me saying anything isn't going to mean anything - just my word vs theirs. And knwing how sue-happy those people are, I'm not about to put myself at risk of any legal pressure. You wanna know something, then ask - but I'm not going to openly start gushing my griefs.
I'm sure there are plenty of people there that like there jobs....but with so many departments, you can't make a blanket statement that "people there seem to like their jobs". Of course people higher up and in power are going to like their jobs. Incompetence is not a reason to lose your job at that place. I happened to work in what I thought was a pretty important department where things mattered but I came to find out that even the boss's in the department didn't care about the end result. And when you work harder than everyoen else and do a better job than everyone else, you tend to become a target because you make the other's look bad. It quickly becomes an unsteady environment. And even when your boss's and there boss's know about it, they do nothing to correct it - because they don't care.
Bottom line with nearly every department at Dish is this: they don't care. Just like any company, you'll occasionally come across that one person that really does care but it's rare. Generally, everyone there just shows up to collect a paycheck. As an uneducated guess, I'd say that honestly less than 20% of the employees there take any pride in there work or go above what is asked of them. And people wonder why there equipment and customer service sucks. That's why.
If you worked at DirecTV, then the response would be opposite. The Dish people here would go "See see...DirecTV is an inferior company". Its okay for people to say anything negative about DirecTV, but...when they say anything negative about Dish, then they act like its unfair.
Hey Scott I caught your post and immediately thought of his comments regarding the engineers. Even when watching the chat this past Monday I kind of thought it was a bit cruel to toss such barbs publicly. It's really poor managerial form.
I do understand his frustration though. A boss asks for a timetable on a job and is usually given an estimate. If Charlie's engineers continue to lag behind or put forth flawed products then it really is understandable that he gets frustrated. That is especially so considering some of the scathing letters I'm sure he receives.
At the same time whenever dealing with products this complex I don't think it too unreasonable that goals, at least in terms of time, aren't being met. Software and development can and do fall behind schedule. It's almost a given with any product or company I'm familiar with.
That doesn't excuse public cruelty or demeaning employees in such a way......and of course frustration over the DP is on another level entirely lol J
In so much as the comments that E* employees read these boards it's true. I was told by no less than three employees at E* and two CSRs that they did indeed read the newsgroups but had a company policy that prohibited posting.
Some I knew for a fact even reached my old firewalled group because they could sit right there on the phone and discuss the days, or several days topics.
I do disagree with what was stated about the employees not caring. During the first nine months after the DishPlayer was released I found various people at E* more than helpful in answering questions, discussing the product, and providing insight into the reasons behind some of the problems with the product.
Just today one of those conversations came to mind when I read a post stating that they were having problems with upgraded DishPlayers frying their power supply. Gee E* only had me pass that along in Jan of 2000 and everyone thought I was crazy Of course they also clued me in to the official upgrade program which started in April 2000 if I recall.
Those people cared about the product, cared about the community, and cared enough about their jobs to want the community to know that they were doing their best as they took pride in their work.
Sure they were frustrated with WebTV/MS but it was E* employees who helped their community not WebTV when it came right down to it. While what you are saying may be true to one extent or another, I couldn't honestly just sit back and say nothing when I knew there were a few people who were so helpful and so caring when this community had no one turn to for help. J
Disagree, You said: "Bottom line with nearly every department at Dish is this: they don't care..." I sincerely doubt that you have contacted all 11,000-plus employees of the DiSH Network and can say this honestly.
Besides, you have revealed that you are a CSR meaning you answer the phone for DiSH Network and this explains plenty.
For those that don't know, the Call Center is generally the part of any corporation that has:
- lowest pay
- lowest skill requirements for hire
- highest turnover rates
- highest stress levels
- highest percentage of disability claims and sick time
- the largest density of employees crammed into the smallest area of office floorspace
- highest incident of personnel issues requiring a greater number of managers per employee
In summary, these are the qualities of every Call Center environment I have ever encountered.
I'm sorry to inform you, but you and your situation are not unique by a long shot. I have plenty of experience in this type of environment. Both my wife and I are loosely tied to Call Centers at our respective companies and it's like "Days of Our Lives" every day of the week at both places. In fact, my company even has a separate set of guidelines for handling CSRs with kid gloves becuase they are such a unique breed. I can't tell you how many incidents have occurred in that environment throughout my 6 years here: fist fights, ass-kissing galore, sex in the office, managers that are obsessed with numbers only -- speed of answer, etc. and could care less about the humans answering the phone, half the office is out on disability during any given week, and the complaints go on and on. Yeah, most of the stuff you described.
Funny thing is, Mr. Disagree, is that when I travel and interface with others in the same line of work as myself, a majority of our time is spent trading stories about psychotic CSRs. Dude, I hate to say it but that's part of the territory. Find another line of work.
If you don't believe me, ever wonder why companies like Teletech have thrived and grown into billion dollar companies over the last couple of years? It's because more and more corporations are tired of dealing with the B.S. and strain that a Call Center puts on their image and the rest of their workforce so they outsource that part of thier business. Again, it's not DiSH, it's the part of DiSH you work for.
First off, I'm not a CSR and have no clue what I said to give off that opinion. I was several "ranks" higher up on the food chain - in a position to know a lot of things and deal with most DEPARTMENTS in the company (not 11,000 employees, but DEPARTMENTS - try reading what I said). Gee, guess your whole theory is shot, pal.
People that call in to the call center are contacting the part of the company that makes NO decisions, has almost no input on what goes on. Their just messengers. I worked in an area that had decision making ability and influence over many things that affected everyone in the company - including customers. So when I say I got an "I don't care" attitude from tthese departments, I can say that because I dealt with those departments firsthand. Firstly, the people that are in charge of the call centers and training are morons. That's why the CSR's seem so clueless. And I worked with people in an important department that openly admitted to me that they didn't gice a crap about their job or what they did. And do you honestly think marketing or I.T. or any other department there knows what their doing is negatively affecting the call center and/or customers? Let me tell you right now, they don't. They role out promotions without considering how it's going to affect people, so when I would see them with everyone else, I would wonder why they didn't address these issues - and if you try to say anything about it, you get your hand slapped. THAT'S the problem I had/have with that company - they don't care, period. And it all starts right at the top.
No where did I say my situation was unique - I actually said I know this goes on at many places, did I not? My entire point in regards to this thread was that Charlie doesn't deserve Businessman of the Year because of the way he runs his company and treats his employees.
And again - your whole premis of your post is that I'm a CSR which I was not (in direct relation to my griefs with the company). Trust me, I was around CSR's all day, I've been a CSR before, so I know of the horror stories. I'm not talking about a piddly 6.00/hour job. So once you realuize that, we can talk some more.
First you say this:
"People in that company are promoted without having the legitimate experience needed to do their own jobs and it gets too frustrating for the ones that do know what their doing, so they quit. I speak from experience... And I hate seeing bad people get ahead. There are so many good workers that get the shaft while the a**holes get promoted (in any job) and I'm just tired of seeing it happen."
Then you say this:
"...It's almost impossible to get fired from that company as a CSR because there hard to find. But anyone else in the company that shows a little chuzpah is at risk of going bye bye, for one reason or another (because their position can always be filled by promoting an unqualified CSR)."
That's why it appears that you were a CSR or at least were VERY close to this position. You can't deny that, because you've already stated it.
Really, it's not necessary to play the victim here. Charlie was awarded Businessman of the Year for doing what businessman do -- that is, make money for the company and it's shareholders.
As far how he does that, you can either agree or disagree with that process -- but, what you must agree on is that he has turned a local po-dunk satellite business into a multi-billion dollar corporation. Now, he's in a position to become to the DBS industry what Bill Gates is to Operating Systems.
Your saying he doesn't deserve that notoriety because the morale level is low in some of his departments? I disagree with that assertion. Assuming that he has done nothing illegal to get to the point where he now is, I say that how much his employees "give a crap" has no bearing on whether or not he has been successful at what he set out to accomplish.
>>"Your saying he doesn't deserve that notoriety because the morale level is low in some of his departments? I disagree with that assertion. Assuming that he has done nothing illegal to get to the point where he now is, I say that how much his employees "give a crap" has no bearing on whether or not he has been successful at what he set out to accomplish."<<
Where did I say anything about morale being low? You can't read worth a crap, dude. I said he treats his employees like crap and it's passed down form the top. Yeah, he's such a great business man because he has so few complaints with the BBB and all over these boards. Sorry, but in my opinion, there's more to being a good businessperson than just making money (which he hasn't yet, by the way). And just as many people will say he's ruined DBS with the addition of locals. And the things I said about the CSR situation are common knowledge in that company. You just refuse to take anything I say without trying to play me off like some CSR or something. Take a step off the grassy knoll for a minute and think about the facts I gave. You don't have to agree with them or believe them if you don't want to, but stop trying to twist it around by saying I don't have knowledge about what I'm talking about.
Well "Disagree" I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with some of your latest post though I think you bring up some points that people around the various groups have broached in a very long time.
Yeah, he's such a great business man because he has so few complaints with the BBB and all over these boards."
I don't know what groups you've been reading but I've been busting his chops for quite some time, but ONLY when I thought he deserved it. I'm not alone in that. Many many people are just as harsh, if not moreso than I am in my criticism.
"And just as many people will say he's ruined DBS with the addition of locals."
Chuck personally? I don't believe so. I believe it was the cable industry who pushed the courts to force the dbs providers to carry local channels.
I will say this though....I never like the DISH 500 satellite dish idea. I felt it a waste of money. "Up to 500 channels". Nonsense. They weren't even close in the beginning and still aren't now. I never liked the idea of having to buy even more hardware in order to obtain common channels.
Maybe it's because I came from Primestar who did provide more channels than Dish Network for even less money. Maybe it's also because they had a better variety of broadcast channels without assaulting me every five seconds via broadcast or mail to have me contact my congressman.
If Chuck has destroyed anything over more than two and a half years I've been a subscriber it is peoples trust in him and the ease of simply buying a product and having it work with no muss and no fuss.
Price increases, adding crap channels, taking away decent channels, providing crap receivers, not fixing crap receivers, constant pushes to upgrade hardware, constant pushes to go credit card pay, spamming like no other company I've ever encountered on a variety of subjects, and ultimately passing the buck every time he gets the chance. That erodes my confidence in him personally and in his company. J
...your recent pst reminds me of some other things. First, my comment about Charlie having so few BBB complaints and such - that was sarcasm......not sure if it came across that way or not.
Also, when you mentioned the 500 channels nonsense. Imagine how much CSRs hate answering that question when a customer calls in and asks them to list off the 500 channels they can get. And to add to the false advertising campaign they do, listen to their radio ads say "crystal clear video" - are you kidding me? "500 channels" and "crystal clear" - man, I wish someone would take them to court over truth in advertising.
As for the locals issue, it was Charlie that thought it would be a good idea to make different cities' locals available to the whole country. Once he did that, it's now exploded into must carry, wasting bandwidth, terrible PQ, and this possible merger with Direct TV. If it weren't for locals, Charlie would have plenty of bandwidth for any channels he wanted and would've had no reason to buy Direct.
What kind of "Businessman Of The Year" instills this much deception and lack of trust in his customers? Some of you might say that EVERY successful businessman has to employ these tactics to be successful, but in today's society, economy, and job market, I have no sympathy for ANYone that treats people like crap, and these poeple shouldn't be supported. I'm sure there are plenty of good companies out there worth supporting.