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Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by Stuart Sweet, Jun 24, 2010.
Ok. I will try to be very, very clear. TiVo has a history of never delivering a product on time. Not once. Not a standalone box, not an integrated box. ComCast customers waited extra years for the boxes, which to this day are only rolled out in selected markets.
The only complaint that is consistent about the HR2x series is that DIRECTV may have released the originals too early. We have a company supplying existing hardware with a history of delivering DVRs on time or early. We have a company supplying software that has an established track record of missed deadlines in every product category (multiple year misses, often). How do you possibly call that jumping to conclusions?
What downside is there for DIRECTV delaying the TiVo development anyway? From all indications, they stand to lose no money on the sale of any of the TiVo units. The DIRECTV hardware will presumably go at the same price as today and the TiVo software development would seem to be funded by the "premium price" for the service.
Furthermore, I very much want TiVo to release the product because I am a free market capitalist. Competition is good. I want TiVo to be their old seemingly competent self and provide innovation and functionality that pushes both products to be better.
So yes, I get your point just fine. You resent us using facts to draw reasonable conclusions based on TiVo's history instead of their marketing pitches.
TiVo announced in Fall 2008 that it would be available in second half of 2009 .. We are now in second half of 2010 with a likely release sometime in 2011 (barring additional setbacks) .. Why on earth should we NOT blame at least someone for the 1+ yr delay?
...and since Tivo is the one developing the firmware for the end product all that time, all based on specifications given to them way back then...the delay culprit would seem obvious to some. Having history repeat itself would make it even more obvious.
If so, you really had made no point at all, no one seemed to have gotten that non-point anyway.
What point is that? Is there a foundation to celebrate the delay?
In the early days the DirecTiVo threads had many TiVo enthusiasts, their number had dropped over time to the point now almost none is left here. It does make the thread look biased because there is no longer counter points made here for some time.
If you are trying to resurrect that counter point, by all means do so, no one wants just one-sided argument, just make sure there is a point you are making here.
In terms of TIVO and cable, the lack of "on demand" programming is a huge issue because Comcast is making a major push there and like DirecTV has some program sources like Fearnet only available on demand. It's this horrible choice between Comcast's dismal 160gb or losing on demand programming. And while I think I'm pretty aware of what the various technologies are likely to be, I honestly worry about the future compatibility of TIVO with cable.
The subscription fee is mostly a wash because comcast nails you almost the same for "rental" of a HD DVR.
This is from someone more than ready to pull the trigger based on comcast's better selection of HD where the sticking point IS the DVR options. (Honestly, if comcast enabled the esata on their box, we'd be customers right now.)
I think the point is that we shouldn't be trying blame anyone for the delay .. My response is "why not?" :shrug:
If we're not gonna talk about it we might as well shut the thread down and ban all discussion. There is legitimately NOTHING to talk about regarding the TiVo. The only concrete items we've had are the 9/08 press release, the occasional Tom Rogers "six more months" references, and the recent "We're waiting on TiVo" comment from Michael White.
TiVo should be THE premier DVR company. They very well could have been, too, but here we are today 10+ years after their inception and all anyone can talk about is their potential. All of TiVo's Patents expire within 10 years. It's time for them to get cracking ....
Nothing is more sad than unrealized potential
Pretty much. They have always had outrageously limited resources, and often had other things interfere with being able to get anything done "on time". That's one reason why they'll never commit to a specific date.
I've said quite often that there doesn't seem to be a viable business model for a stand-alone DVR maker. So that puts TiVo in the position of having to compete against companies like Cisco. The question you need to ask yourself is whether you think they should simply not exist, thereby limiting your choices to just what companies like Cisco are willing to do for you (and note that Cisco isn't willing to offer their STBs and DVRs for retail sale in the US). However, it goes beyond that. While you may or may not prefer TiVo to simply not exist, other folks have different perspectives, and appreciate the fact that there is a supplier, like TiVo, that does at least as much as TiVo does do when they finally get around to doing it.
In that context, that's all that matters - whether there are enough folks who do want (in this case) the DirecTiVo and will buy it when it finally is offered. The fact that there are other people who don't is not important. That's not to say that how many people willing to wait for it doesn't matter - but that goes back to what I've said repeatedly, that there doesn't seem to be a viable business model for a stand-alone DVR maker.
However, to blame TiVo for not being as big or as financially strong as Cisco is simply indefensible, and that's what much of what was being said boils down to: Second-guessing a small company based on your own personal perceptions of what you would want them to do, or what they arguably should do with regard to one specific product that you care about, ignoring how it fits into the big picture. I think it is enough for folks to say, "I'm not waiting for the DirecTiVo." There is no merit, nor need, to imply that TiVo hasn't been making the best decisions for itself all along.
I think for DirecTV the biggest concern is their investment in this effort, but perhaps that investment is small enough that DirecTV wouldn't care about it, as you imply. I'm not so sure about that. Regardless, if it was important enough to DirecTV, they'd have put specific deadlines in the contract and assessed penalties. There is no indication of any of that sort of thing.
A lot of service providers, out there, want to keep their eye on TiVo, want to keep themselves tied into what TiVo is doing, if only to not be preempted by competitors. When a lot of these deals were struck, TiVo was in a much more pivotal position in the industry. I think what a lot of folks are realizing now is that convergeance itself prompting a downgrading of TiVo's importance. Companies like Apple and Microsoft, which were basically thought of as laughable agents in this sector three years ago, are now much more significant, despite not having really achieved anything important. I think the realization, now, is that they can, and companies, like DirecTV, now are better served keeping themselves tied-in with Apple and Microsoft, as compared to companies that were more of interest several years ago, like TiVo.
You're contradicting yourself. You said, very clear, before that TiVo has never been competent in this regard, i.e., with regard to how on-time they release products. And since you haven't seen the DirecTiVo they're building, yet, you cannot credibly comment on how good of a device it will be.
Rather, I don't resent anything; I object to folks using supposition and innuendo to justify unnecessary and baseless disparagement. There need not be, and in this case, there isn't any, blame.
Which was why I asked maybe he wanted to celebrate the delay
If the point is there is no need to blame or celebrate, i.e. no need to discuss it, then he is not interested in the TiVo subject, which sadly is true for the vast majority of people.
I think people love to read whatever they want into whatever they read, rather than accepting what is actually written. Even today TiVo says, "This new service is expected to launch in 2010."
In English, that is not a commitment. Taking it as a commitment is simply misreading what is written.
Regardless, I'm waiting for it, whenever it is released. It would be enough to get me to reconsider switching providers. And I suspect that there are more potential customers who won't care about previous implications of when it would be delivered, and will just evaluate their options as they are considering them.
Ummm, nobody is saying they think Tivo shouldn't exist. Competition is good. Some are just discussing how long Tivo may last as a company. That is wrong?
So you're saying that we can't criticize Tivo for the decisions they have made? Why is that wrong? There are plenty of threads on this very forum from people who criticize the decisions DirecTV makes on a daily basis. So you're saying people can't discuss in a civil matter (which so far this thread has been) how they feel Tivo has missed the boat or could have done better?
Again, why is this wrong to discuss in your eyes? Certainly fine if you don't agree with the opinions posted, but why is it wrong to discuss them?
From the SEC filings DirecTV's investment is minimal, just a few million bucks in R&D. But it's all a matter of scale. Say $10 million is a HUGE deal to Tivo. To DirecTV it's maybe a weeks worth (or less) of profit and just a tax write off if it fails. No biggy to DirecTV.
You also forget that the main reason for this new agreement is the renewal of the no sue clause until 2018. Allowing Tivo to make a new box is just a side thing and matters not to DirecTV in the least. This has been discussed to death in previous threads.
If I understand you correctly, you have already resigned to the fact that TiVo will be less and less relevant, for good or bad reasons, and that is why there is no need to blame, because it is a foregone conclusion?
I think those who want to blame at least still show some level of interest in TiVo.
You pointed out that the standalone DVR business model has no future, if so TiVo should make every effort to at least show that they are using the limited resources in working day and night to reignite the DirecTiVo model. Since so far there is no evidence of them doing so, I think they deserve the blame.
If you know plan A will not work, and only plan B has the potential, then make every effort to show the world that you are working hard on plan B. That plan B is not limited to the DirecTiVo model, but the Comcast/cable model, even a possible Dish Network model. Dish CEO had already said he was willing to work with TiVo, even made a very specific offer publicly during the last quarterly call that he was willing to pay TiVo $120M a year to settle with TiVo and “work together.”
The potentials are there, TiVo has yet shown that they are even interested in realizing those potentials. TiVo seems only interested in convincing the world that it has the monopoly in the DVR technology, that everyone else should come begging for it.
Hmm...I see that this thread has simply become a place for folks to bicker with Bicker1, for Bicker1 to bicker with others, and possibly for Bicker1 to bicker with...Bicker1.
Plenty of bickering for sure.
Uh, who brought up Cisco? :scratchin
The only "blame" is who is causing the delay (hint, it's TiVo) .. As for disparaging beloved TiVo .. It was a joint DIRECTV/TiVo announcement. DIRECTV has done their part (long, long ago, BTW) and is now waiting on TiVo. The announcement from them was for second half of 2009. I cut them some slack and was willing to call Q1/2010 the same thing, but as of today Q1/2011 seems to be fading.
TiVo set the time table and muffed it. We should sit back and say .. aww shucks, TiVo is not as big as as Cisco - we shouldn't rag on them about being late. Seriously?!
I think DIRECTV is in a position to say "Great" if/when the TiVo becomes available or "Great" if it never does. For them it's a win-win, so yeah, I don't think DIRECTV cares whether it is a success or not. There's no reason to block nor is there reason to pressure.
I haven't seen it either, but I'm growing more confident with every day that disappointment will be the name of the game when the new DIRECTiVo is finally revealed.
Actually, I expected it to launch in 2010 as recently as 2-3 weeks back .. alas ... that has waned.
They were indeed singing that song from January through April of this year....lately....the choir has been silent and perhaps a new choir director being sought.
There were indeed some comments implying that, or otherwise asserting that TiVo doing what was best for TiVo over the last three years was the wrong thing to do.
Surely not... did you read what I posted, in that regard?
There is a difference between a company making the wrong decisions and a company doing things that don't satisfy you. In the absence of the full context of TiVo's decision-making, how could anyone possibly comment on whether the decisions made were right or wrong?
I wonder how many of them help people understand the situation better versus worse.
Yes, very true, and very much on the mark.