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Directv & Trees?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion' started by F1aReD, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Newfoundland...
  2. ndole

    ndole Problem Solver

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    You really should rethink that one :)
     
  3. studechip

    studechip Godfather

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    Instead of speaking vaguely, perhaps you could be more specific. What about the arm of a dish determines los? It only gives you azimuth, not elevation. That's not enough.
     
  4. ndole

    ndole Problem Solver

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    The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS. I never referenced anything to do with pointing coordinates.

    Pretty much self explanatory.
     
  5. damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Newfoundland...
    :lol:.
    OK well this topic is about LOS, and whether its Directvs 3 or 5 LNB regaurdless the LNB or ARM in no way shape or form determin whether he has a clear LOS.

    Thats determined before a Dish is even mounted let alone an LNB.
     
  6. ndole

    ndole Problem Solver

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    How does a smaller LOS window not affect whether or not someone has a LOS? Maybe in his case, since he's dealing with a canopy, it won't make a difference. But yes, a SL3 does reduce the required LOS window.
    It's pretty simple stuff fella :lol:
     
  7. studechip

    studechip Godfather

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    Perhaps not, but it seemed to me that you did. When damondlt said "Just pointing out LNB's have nothing to do with LOS or determining LOS!", I interpreted that to mean looking down the arm of the dish doesn't point to a satellite. I think he will say that that is what he meant. Maybe that's where your confusion is coming from.
     
  8. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If you site down [up from the dish] the arm and you see a tree "odds are" you have a problem with LOS.
     
  9. damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Newfoundland...
    Techs don't do this to determin LOS.

    And your satement not really a true statement either. The Satellites are above the LNBs, they reflect off the top of the dish, down to the LNB's. You should know this. I'm sure you do.

    I have a tree right now about 30" in the air in front of my dish.Its about 40 -50 feet away. but when I site up the LNB arm on my Slimline 5, the top of the tree is right in the way. OK well does that mean I have no LOS? Of course not, the satellite are about 10 or more feet above that tree and to the right of it.. In the future, something may have to be don't but who knows.

    Point is you don't use LNB's to determin LOS!
    I am not going to set up a dish in the woods , clear out everything in front of the LNB,s and realize that the issue was the tree that 10 feet away hanging over the dish, thats not in the path of the LNBs..;)
    Besides, without an app or a compass that most people can't use the LNBs don't tell you where the satellites even are to begin with, LNB's don't point at them. Your talking about millions of miles, not inches of error.
     
  10. damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Newfoundland...
    That is what I meant , cause that what I said LOL!:lol:
     
  11. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Take a look at your dish. "I might be surprised".
    The SATs do come from above the LNBs, but the support arm is also at a higher angle, and "looks fairly close" to the angle from the center of the dish to the SATs.
    This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.
     
  12. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    Salem, OR
    It is assumed that the OP is after some DIRECTV satellites and will be using either a Phase III or Slimline dish.

    If the satellite constellation as a whole doesn't "shine" on the DISH, it doesn't matter what kind of LNB or support arm you use. This is a condition known as "no LOS" and it cannot be cured without moving something more than the LNB.
     
  13. damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Newfoundland...
    :lol:

    I agree what your saying, my point was a Tech is not going to do that. Now if he is doing his own install, Granted Once I established where my LOS was "Not done with LNBS" I would then Aim my dish and Move the trees accordingly. But a homeowner isn't going to know where the Line of site is if he doesn't have an App, or some sort of compass. The LNBs aren't going to give you Direction.
     
  14. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Los...
    The point ndole is making is the amount of orbital arc or "window" seen is determined by the type of LNB used.

    For instance for the Slimline-3 its only 99-103 or 4 degrees.

    A Phase III is 18 degrees

    For the SL-5 its 99-119 or 20 degrees.

    Now DIRECTV recommends an additional 10 degrees clearance on each side and above or below the Clarke belt as a hedge against future plant growth over the years but thats it.

    Therefore depending on the LNB type, whatever necessary satellite constellation a subscriber needs for their service package naturally must fit within those arcs given.
     
  15. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Los...
    I always felt the seldom mentioned upward angle the LNB arm makes with the horizontal was congruent to the actual offset or "bounce" angle the incoming satellite signal makes with a perpendicular line to the dish face (though higher up of course), but was never completely sure. ;)
     
  16. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I guess you don't want to hear who told me to do this then. !rolling
     
  17. damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Newfoundland...
    Yes told you for you to try, but in the field a Tech is not going to go through the trouble to set up a dish and LNB, if he isn't already 100% sure he has a LOS!

    That's common sense!.
     
  18. Michael H..

    Michael H.. Member

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    Lot of dialogue in this thread about LOS definitions, not-detailed enough on-topic discussion for novices.

    Assume if the sub is asking... then they are not familiar with basic tools (dishpointer) and terminology.
    To give the poster a more practical set of instructions, which do not require any special tools (satfinder instruments or apps)...
    You will (might) need a compass, a level, a laser pointer pen, cardboard, and tape.

    First of all, DO Go to the dishpointer site and enter in your address.

    I see that you're in MA, so generally speaking the RANGE of the direction of the sats 99° and 119°, are roughly the SE and NW corners, respectively of Georgia from MA projected onto a 2D map. (I know, not much fidelity, which is why you need to enter your address).
    Depending upon whether your locals, or if you subscribe to Spanish-language channels, etc., you likely do not need to acquire the 110° and 119° sats, so you would have a 3LNB (99° 101° 103°) rather than 5LNB feed. If you do need a 5LNB, then also factor in the 110° and 119° sats.

    From MA (atlantic coast) rather than (pacific coast), the sats arc downward (elevation) from left to right (99° to 119°) looking from the dish to the sky, where the opposite is true from the pacific coast.
    In the dishpointer application, you will get an AZimuth, ELevation, SKew, and the obstruction trigonometric "legs", example: at a distance of 100', the obstruction "must be less than" 70', etc.

    There is an option to select a 3 or 5 LNB multi-sat direction.
    The results default to the nominal (101°) for alignment. (for the 3LNB this is sufficient).
    For the 5LNB, get the numbers for EACH of the individual sats, so that you can locate each one.
    By entering your exact address on the dishpointer site, you'll be able to take advantage of the LOS mapping, providing a visual line superimposed on your site imagery, where you can reference existing landmarks... example: from the SW corner eave of the house, the 99° sat is located in the direction 10' W of driveway/road intersection (much easier than using a compass).

    You can then physically walk off the distance from the dish (100' from the example) and ensure that the tree top is less than 70'... or possibly in your case, that the canopy is higher than 70' AND that the tree trunk(s) are not in the LOS.

    The materials I mentioned... tape the laser pointing pen to the cardboard with a reference line or edge of the bottom to align to the level based upon the ELevation.
    You will then be able to walk your site, and check the LOS from any point.

    The ROM numbers for MA are approximately:
    SAT AZ(True) ELev OBst(@100')
    99° 218° 34° 67'
    101° 220° 33° 65'
    103° 222° 32° 63'
    119° 238° 22° 41' (notice the relatively large delta's)

    The tolerances on the home-made sat finder, is such that for a 3LNB, it will suffice to locate the 101° sat, since the 99° and 103° sats are offset only 2° AZ and 1° EL.

    Because the 110° and 119° are spaced relatively far apart from the 3LNB sats, you should verify these in addition to the 101° sat.

    Note: Usually a workable location for a dish in your situation, is to pole-mount on the N side of (and away from) the house and aim over the house (and hopefully the trees).

    EDIT:

    Uh... Nevermind...
    This post can be referenced to help explain what you're looking at, but skip the field instructions and download the app damondlt references in his post (3rd post after this one).
    Damondlt: The "once per year" that I look at the sky never warranted me spending $20 for an app, but I immediately installed and tried out the free one you posted, Thanks...
     
  19. F1aReD

    F1aReD AllStar

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    Thanks for all the reply's! I never meant actually "going through" the tree trunks themselves, but going in between 2 trees that may be spaced far enough apart, as Rich suggested..an "alley"

    You hit it spot on, this is exactly what I meant. They are multiple layers deep, so I don't think a pole in between would work...It would only be maybe 20' away from the house, I'll have to take another walk around and see.

    I'm going to try Michaels idea first, (since it's basically free) but just incase does anyone know of a good App for an iPad or an Android phone?
     
  20. studechip

    studechip Godfather

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    The dishpointer app works nicely. It's $20 the last I knew.
     

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