DirecTVs newest "scam"?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by SledgeHammer, Nov 14, 2014.

  1. Dec 1, 2014 #221 of 245
    Diana C

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    First of all, there was no "light" seen in the transition from ThickNet (RG8) to UTP. It was purely economics. Back in the 1970's and 1980's, as personal computers started to appear in businesses, the standard network media was coaxial or twin-axial cable. However, no office buildings had much, if any, coax or twinax in place. They did have a LOT of twisted pair. So, a product called LatticeNet appeared - the first commercial implementation of the ethernet protocol on twisted pair. Shortly thereafter IBM came out with their Token Ring network that ran on Cat3 wiring. For a lot of early implementations, unused voice pairs were used. As speeds pushed higher, the wiring specs became more stringent and new wire was pulled anyway, but by that point PCs were now where most computing was being done.

    Secondly, what power adapters are needed for MOCA? MOCA was not designed to a general purpose network solution. It was conceived as a way to get IP traffic to the same place you were already running coax for TV purposes. I know of no network knowledgable person that would advocate using MOCA where there is no need for TV distribution over coax.

    Finally, I have rarely seen properly designed and implemented Cat5/ethernet networks in people's homes, so there are PLENTY of was to mess up Cat5. The most common error I see daisy chaining switches, which will have direct impact on performance. WiFi installations are even worse. The mixing of MOCA and Cat5 is usually the least of the problems.
     
  2. Dec 1, 2014 #222 of 245
    harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    The power adapters associated with the CCKs that are required for all non-DIRECTV RVU solutions.

    I was thinking about how many outlets would be used with a tailgate configuration that would pass muster with an RVU installation procedure and it made me chuckle. A classic installation would require one outlet for the TV and a second for the receiver. The RVU installation would require at least four.
     
  3. Dec 1, 2014 #223 of 245
    Diana C

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    That is DECA, not MOCA. There are routers on the market with built-in MOCA support (eg. Actiontec routers). There are also MOCA adapters with built-in switches (at least one of which supports both DECA and MOCA). Besides, cat5 switches need power supplies too, so I still don't see your point.

    What does tailgating have to do with this?? Who is tailgating with RVU?? You had commented that MOCA node limits/bandwidth would be insufficient for commercial installs and Slice, peds, Laxguy and I were responding to that comment. What the heck are you talking about?
     
  4. Dec 1, 2014 #224 of 245
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Daisy chaining switches is not a problem. The latency of a switch is measured in microseconds, the impact on performance would be quite difficult to measure. It is pretty hard to mess up an ethernet network, so long as the cables are purchased or professionally installed.

    Many enterprise networks effectively "daisy chain" switches because you might have a workgroup switch your PC is attached to, that connects to a core switch, that connects to a top of rack switch that connects to the server you're accessing. While those switches have advanced monitoring and configuration capabilities, greater redundancy, additional capabilities like VLANs, etc. the switching works in exactly the same way as the cheapo 8 port switch you buy from Best Buy or Newegg.

    With wifi I agree, there are so many potential issues ranging from poor switch placement to interference from microwaves or cordless landline phones, as well as interference from neighbors.
     
  5. Dec 1, 2014 #225 of 245
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    On what planet would someone need RVU for tailgating? They need one receiver. So they take the genie not the client. That's just common sense. They wouldn't take a genie and a client. There would be no need for that.

    Heck within a year or so all are going to have streaming for most channels anyway so all people will really need is a hot spot and a smart tv. No receiver at all.
     
  6. Dec 1, 2014 #226 of 245
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I guess you haven't see how real tailgaters do it. Multi TV tailgating setups are not all that uncommon these days. There are a lot of games going on with conference networks, alt channels, up to four broadcast networks showing games, multiple ESPN channels, FS1, and so on. One guy that parks in the $100K donor lot has one of those big ass half million dollar plus RVs with a panel on the side that slides over to reveal six 50" TVs. Big tent all around, he has like 50 people seated in there watching usually, and people will stop for a moment to check out the various games as they walk by. Never been inside it, but I'm sure there are more TVs in there.

    I'm not sure where you go that tailgaters will have a hot spot available to them with enough bandwidth to stream WatchESPN. Even with a good connection it gets muddy at times, and always runs well behind the live broadcast. If you managed to stream ESPN and the guy next to you has a dish set up, he'll see the outcome of a play before they even break the huddle on WatchESPN.

    The only time (home or away) I've ever had wifi available tailgating is when I'm at a tailgating at a friend's house who lives about 250 yards from the stadium. He also has a Directv dish on the corner of his garage, even though he subscribes to cable - the regulars who rent space in his backyard and set up 4 TVs installed it so they wouldn't have to bring/aim a dish :)

    Even inside a stadium wifi isn't at all a given and often sucks so bad (probably due to people streaming off it) you turn it off and use cellular.
     
  7. Dec 1, 2014 #227 of 245
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    If you have a half million dollar rig you aren't really tailgating and you have plenty of room for RVU etc and it's probably perminant fixture
    In the RV. I am referring to true tailgating.

    And speeds are on the rise and such with wifi and cellular.
     
  8. Dec 1, 2014 #228 of 245
    harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    A planet where you wanted to show off your 4K before it wasn't extraordinary anymore.
     
  9. Dec 1, 2014 #229 of 245
    Diana C

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    To show what? A mediocre movie???? I was under the impression that one tailgates at a football game so that you can watch, you know, FOOTBALL!! Until somebody is broadcasting a football game in UHD this is a non-issue. And it isn't like to become an issue for another couple of years (at least), so why don't we just wait and see what the options are then? Okay?
     
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  10. Dec 1, 2014 #230 of 245
    Diana C

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    I'm not talking about latency, I'm talking about media saturation. For example, let's say we're going to tune 12 network attached UHD Smart TVs to the same multicast feed. I will need three 5 port switches to support the devices in my network. If I attach each switch directly to the router, and these are 100Mbit/sec switches, each 100 Mbit/sec link from switch to router only needs to support 4 devices. In other words, I can run four 25 Mbit/sec sessions from the router all the way to the TVs. This holds true for all the devices attached to every switch. So, assuming I have the source also attached to the router, I can stream the UHD content to each to the TVs without difficulty.

    If I daisy chain one of the switches off one of the other two, then there are up to 8 devices sharing a single 100 Mbit/sec link back to the router. Now, if all nodes are active, I can get only support 12.5 Mbit/sec to each of the 8 "daisy chained" TVs. I will now encounter stutters and pixelation - and the ONLY change is how the third switch is attached to the LAN.

    Granted, in a home network it is unlikely to have so many active nodes, but if we are talking about streaming UHD to many TVs then you do have to worry about saturating the uplinks that connect switches. Sure, switching to gigabit switches would help...but is just throwing bandwidth at a topology problem.

    The right way to use switches is to home run them all to the router. You should daisy chain switches ONLY as an absolute last resort.
     
  11. Dec 1, 2014 #231 of 245
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    And it's also why gig ones are nice imho.
     
  12. Dec 1, 2014 #232 of 245
    Diana C

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    But as I noted, it is just throwing bandwidth at the problem, trying to cover up a topology mistake.
     
  13. Dec 1, 2014 #233 of 245
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    No, it is using the appropriate technology for the job. Ethernet didn't start at 100 Mb, if you use an old 10 Mb switch you have laying around and hoped to feed several RVU nodes off it, it wouldn't work even with the 'appropriate' topology. Switches were designed to be able to interconnect, it is not a topology error to do so - in fact when a technology is new they'll often include a single uplink/aggregation port designed for this (like a 100 Mb switch with a single gigabit port)

    With gigabit you can connect things up however you like, daisy chained up the wazoo if you feel like it, and even a dozen 4K streams will be perfectly fine on the same network as you do filesharing, internet access and so forth.

    There's usually a pretty good jump in pricing between 8 and 16 port switches (for current technology, not refurbished, etc.) because 8 is enough for most home users. As a result, daisy chaining two 8 port switches is generally cheaper than buying one 16 port switch, and maybe a bit better idea from a resiliency standpoint since you could rejigger things and get the more important half of your devices connected if one switch failed at an inconvenient time.
     
  14. Dec 1, 2014 #234 of 245
    peds48

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    The cable itslef may not require power adapters, but the routers, switches, WAPs, do… So is a wash...

    DECA can survive without any power at all, it does not even need a router! Or a WAP! Or a switch!!!!!
     
  15. Dec 1, 2014 #235 of 245
    peds48

    peds48 Genius.

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    Know I know I know that you tailgate with 20 TVs… !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling
     
  16. Dec 1, 2014 #236 of 245
    dpeters11

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    I'm definitely am not a tailgater, but I figured most didn't do much with HD as aiming an SD dish is simpler. But I don't think I'd want to move a 4k set around. Once it's on the entertainment center, it's not moving. All the 4k sets I've seen are on the large side.
     
  17. Dec 1, 2014 #237 of 245
    Diana C

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    Sigh...okay, you do it your way, I'll do it mine. You know, when 100BaseT first came around, there were the same comments made about "just use 100Mbit switches and you don't have to worry about interlink speed." Now, here we have the same attitude: don't fix your design, just throw bandwidth at it. That will work, until you need to get more than an aggregate of 1 Gbit/sec to all of the devices down a string of daisy chained switches.

    I've been involved with LAN design and architecture professionally since 1984. I have installed vampire taps on thick ethernet, dealt with BNC T-connectors on thin ethernet, worked with PC-Net, ARCNet, Token Ring, designed a LatticeNet system for my company in 1990, and have a home network supporting 36 devices with 3 switches (one 5 node and two 8 node, all gigabit class), an eleven node MOCA segment, an 802.11ac access point and an 802.11ac gigabit router. So believe me when I say that there is a right way and a wrong way to use switches (particularly unmanaged ones like you find in homes and many smaller businesses). Using the wrong wiring topology may work well enough, but it won't work as well as it could.
     
  18. Dec 2, 2014 #238 of 245
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Yes but sometimes that is a lot easier than spending hundreds of dollars and hours of time breaking open walls to install more lines. At least on a home. In a business I think it's much more critical to do it truly right. But in a home upgrading to a gig switch may fix an issue a lot easier than the alternative and better way as for most people it will likely give a suitable Performance.

    If they'd just make all houses with massive pull conduits everywhere things would be so much easier. ;)
     
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  19. Dec 2, 2014 #239 of 245
    harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    CAT5 can be the foundation of a LAN without routers and WAPs as well. Routers come in handy if there's an Internet connection (and are required by DECA in the same situation) and WAPs if you want to include Wi-fi but they aren't required to create a fully functional LAN.

    The magic of CAT5 is that all that is needed to interconnect any tabletop device is a CAT5 cable. No proprietary adapters are required. Such is not the case with DECA and an RVU TV. CAT5 also supports POE that DECA cannot if you're truly bent on eliminating power supplies.
     
  20. Dec 2, 2014 #240 of 245
    Doug Brott

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    Still trying to shove a square peg into a round hole I see. :p
     
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