Dish AutoHop vs Networks Commercial Skipping Discussion

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by phrelin, May 15, 2012.

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  1. May 16, 2012 #21 of 695
    Nick

    Nick Charter Gold Club Member

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    Commercial advertisers have delivered "free" television programming to American viewers since the beginnings of tv. The phrase "brought to you by..." or "sponsored by..." has real significance to tv advertisers. They bring "free" tv to your living room, in return, you watch their commercials -- at least, that's the model, the way it's supposed to work...the price we pay for free tv. Subverting the free tv model by skipping commercials is like going sneaking into a movie theater or walking into a retail store, ripping the price tags off the merchandise and walking out with the goods without paying.

    Either way, it's stealing.
     
  2. May 16, 2012 #22 of 695
    356B

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    So let me get this straight....you really believe the Networks had no idea this was coming or what Dish was up to?
     
  3. May 16, 2012 #23 of 695
    bigdog9586

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    I had a Panasonic VCR a good 15 years ago that had the skip feature. Didn't work EVERYTIME but most of the time.
     
  4. May 16, 2012 #24 of 695
    James Long

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    AutoHOP is not once and done. The customer makes the choice every time they start playback of an AutoHOP program ... including replays of the same program on the same Hopper/Joey.

    It is easy to say yes ... but it is a decision presented every time the show plays.


    It certainly will be a topic at contract renewal for retransmission.

    The Direct Marketing Association allows people to opt out of commercials: https://www.dmachoice.org/ At least they give the option.

    The trouble is DISH is paying broadcasters for their channels ... local broadcasters are not paying DISH for carriage - local stations are specifically prohibited by law from paying for cable or satellite carriage.

    The ad example doesn't work, as site like ours are paid by those advertisers and any attempt to block ads immediately hurts the site. (I am not involved with advertising at this site - but in general, sites with advertising are paid for impressions and or click throughs. If an ad is not displayed there is simply no payment ... if no one clicks on an ad there are no click through payments. The penalty for not showing the ads is built in to the deal.)

    If DBSTalk had an integrated content service ... some company that was paid for their presence of the site (which we don't) and then we allowed our users to choose to watch the integrated content with or without that company's commercials that company might get ticked. But there is no such company.
     
  5. May 17, 2012 #25 of 695
    phrelin

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    Much to my surprise, The Hollywood Reporter on Monday published an article How the TV Industry Blew Its Best Chance to Kill Dish's Ad-Skipping Technology. It's worth reading the whole article, but here's some highlights. The ReplayTV suit was never resolved because Sonicblue declared bankruptcy. There was never any substantial judicial determination about the merits of the case. According to the article:
    This article and other articles note that taking on Charlie Ergen in court is not anywhere near the walk in the park the ReplayTV lawsuit represented.

    It is true, of course, that at some point they could refuse to renew retransmission agreements with Dish. But it isn't as simple as it sounds.

    The network that would most likely be a critical player in a lawsuit, Fox, just signed a retransmission agreement which even gives Dish subscribers early access to on line content. It won't expire for a number of years. So missing from the mix will be Rupert Murdoch, the only true worthy opponent for Charlie.

    NBCU has a very big problem since it is 51% owned by and completely controlled by Comcast, one of Dish's biggest competitors. What are they going to argue? Well, yeah, our DVR does allow manual skipping. But this one makes it more convenient than our box to skip limited programming on one of our many channels.

    CBS can't afford to lose Dish customers, most of whom don't use Hoppers anyway.

    And whether the folks over in the Disney executive suites realize this or not, Dish would seriously consider dumping Disney/ESPN/ABC altogether, allowing them to knock at least $13/mo off the price of all packages. That's the kind of number that gets the favorable attention of subscribers and unfavorable attention of Congress.

    It's always interesting to watch Charlie's machinations. The Hopper as a problem represents...
    • a small percentage of Dish customers watching...
    • non-live content...
    • recorded during a few hours out of the day...
    • from just 4 local broadcast network channels among the hundreds of channels available.
    And think how long it took to resolve the Tivo case....

    But it is a fundamental challenge to the 1958 broadcast network TV channel model, which has outlived its usefulness.
     
  6. May 17, 2012 #26 of 695
    sregener

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    Is it? Then I've been stealing since 1984 when I started time shifting with a VCR. But I don't think it is stealing, any more than it is stealing to ignore the advertisements in the newspaper or magazine. Tell me, do you read them all, word-for-word, every day or month those print editions show up on your doorstep? In my view, television ads are there for me to watch if I want to, not something that I am obligated to watch.
     
  7. May 17, 2012 #27 of 695
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    The broadcasters are a little more powerful than Tivo ... or at least they were. Probably a better direct comparison is the broadcaster's suit against DISH in the Distants case.

    If one were to use the Tivo case my first question would be "who won?". Other than the lawyers, Tivo ended up with some money, DISH removed Tivo technology once it was deemed infringing (please put it back) and other than DVR performance issues and people who follow the industry, customers didn't notice.

    The Distants case led to new federal law ALLOWING what DISH and DirecTV wanted to do ... a victory for satellite broadcasters. DISH's eventual loss came from not following the new federal law and allowing customers to receive distants who were not qualified. Even that has been repaired through additional changes in federal law.

    It will be a long drawn out battle ... but I do not expect it to be solved in the courts. I expect it to be solved at the negotiating table when retransmission consent is renewed for each local station. Stations demanding that AutoHOP be disabled on their station as a term of carriage.

    Broadcasters have already proven that they don't care about satellite viewers ... and they are willing to sacrifice the viewership during contract disputes. They assume that their viewers want the local channel more than they want satellite - and in some ways that is true. But it needs to be more of a partnership.

    Perhaps a local non-skipable ad at the beginning of the program could "pay" for the use of AutoHOP on each channel? "This AutoHOP program is brought to you with limited commercial interruptions by ... local sponsor." Or a national sponsor with the "per impression" money going to the local station.

    Something will be worked out.
     
  8. May 17, 2012 #28 of 695
    356B

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    Northern...
    I believe the issue is, is it worth the money and effort to take on a lengthly legal war over a negligible position? Clearly it is not, but that is no guarantee that it won't happen. My wife is affiliated with Media News which owns her local newspaper, there's a saying in the newsroom when a suit is threaten by a pissed off politician or local....go ahead... we have lawyers sitting around waiting for the phone to ring....!
    Posturing... Auto Hop is to big to fail....
     
  9. May 18, 2012 #29 of 695
    Cable Lover

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  10. May 18, 2012 #30 of 695
    Cable Lover

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    So they are closing ranks to try to stop it. At least one of the network owners, News Corporation, is no longer accepting Dish’s new DVR ads on any of its television properties. It and several other owners are examining whether they can sue Dish, the same way they sued a maker of DVRs a decade ago, according to several people with knowledge of the deliberations, who insisted on anonymity to speak freely about the internal discussions
     
  11. May 18, 2012 #31 of 695
    TheRatPatrol

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    I wonder if this will be the beginning of the end of skipping commercials?

    I bet the networks will require it be stopped altogether, or will start charging a monthly fee to skip them. Its going to get interesting.
     
  12. May 18, 2012 #32 of 695
    dpeters11

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    I fully admit I don't have a Hopper, but this is something that potentially affects all of us.

    My main thing is that those using the Hopper and skipping the commercials generally were anyway. Same thing with a lot of other Dish and DirecTV customers either by fast forwarding or using a 30 second skip.

    If the networks end up putting contrived ads into programming with awkward dialog (like Fox did on Bones), it will drive viewers nuts.
     
  13. May 18, 2012 #33 of 695
    shuye

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    They should go to a price model like many of the apps - if the customer wants it free, they get commercials. If they don't want commercials, then they pay a monthly subscription. I'd gladly pay $1 per month per network channel to have no commercials and just fill in the "dead" time with a local news or weather update
     
  14. May 18, 2012 #34 of 695
    Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

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    That is the problem. We already DO pay a monthly subscription, and STILL get commercials.
     
  15. May 18, 2012 #35 of 695
    Cable Lover

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    HOUSE has become bad about that as well. This season I've seen many Ford ads worked into the show.
     
  16. May 18, 2012 #36 of 695
    SayWhat?

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    Not me. The networks rake in enough already.
     
  17. May 18, 2012 #37 of 695
    TheRatPatrol

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    And if the cable networks get in on this as well you'll still pay $1.00 per channel? I don't think so.
     
  18. May 18, 2012 #38 of 695
    zer0cool

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    That you can't use the feature until AFTER the show airs, which means if you are watching, you are watching some kind of recording, be it DVR or Video tape (ugh). Who doesn't skip the commercials on their recorded programming?

    Now, granted when using the standard skip buttons, I occasionally see part of an ad that makes me rewind and watch the whole thing, but not very often.
     
  19. May 18, 2012 #39 of 695
    phrelin

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    Northern...
  20. May 18, 2012 #40 of 695
    satcrazy

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    Great...
    Exactly.

    The locals can produce all the commercials they want. [ no one is fighting that] and by the way, [ for the huge sums of money spent on advertising] has anyone seen at least a "clever" commercial lately? 99.9% of them are incredibly stupid.

    Why do we have to be force-fed them? Especially at obnoxiously higher decibel levels? The tv industry is still dragging their feet on that one.

    I don't even have a hopper, but I hope Dish doesn't cave.
     
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