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DISH's new Hopper DVR - A good idea?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by TomCat, Jan 13, 2012.

Do we like DISH's "Hopper" concept?

  1. Great idea; I can't wait for DTV to offer this

    0 vote(s)
  2. I might use it some if I had it

  3. Ho hum

  4. Bad idea - let's not complicate things

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Jan 16, 2012 #81 of 122
    Diana C

    Diana C Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

    Mar 30, 2007
    New Jersey
    A transponder carries more than just the MPEG4 data of the video channels. What's the total bit rate of a transponder? That's what is being recorded.
  2. Jan 16, 2012 #82 of 122

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

    Aug 31, 2002
    Well Jerry, I think you might just not get it. The appeal of this system goes up proportionally by the amount of big-4 prime you want to record, and also by how (short of a period of time) you want to save it. That makes it attractive for some folks, all but useless in that mode (which can be ignored or even turned off) for others.

    Its a niche product, but according to the poll that niche is 25% wide, and that number is likely low since forum posters are traditionally high-use DVR owners and typically outside that niche.

    You do not have to busy yourself resaving content. Set SLs for shows you want to save more than 8 days and they will be recorded using a dedicated tuner, which is exactly what you are doing now. Then let the Hopper algorithm take care of the rest, which you never even have to touch. The only penalty for that convenience is it takes 17-20% of a 2 TB drive to hold the Hopper stuff, but the advantage is you miss fewer recordings because you get a second chance to resave, you do not have to busy yourself setting up any casual big-4-prime recordings, and more tuners are potentially available at all times to avoid conflicts, assuming one or more of the recordings is big-4.

    Its also a great way for trying new shows and then not having to either create or delete an SL for it; if you like it a lot, set a SL, if you like it casually, let Hopper handle it, and if you like it not at all, you don't have to delete a SL because you never had to set one.

    It seems like the DISH system may not do exactly this, but it seems like you could just use the main recording partition and then begin to jettison day 8 or day 7 or day 6 if the drive starts getting really full, which means that 97% of the time or better, both conventional recording and Hopper recording can coexist, and for the other 3% or less of the time there is nothing standing in the way of using the entire drive just like we do now, and if we opt to fill it all the way with saved recordings, that would just put the Hopper algorithm on hiatus until the drive opens up again. At least that is the way I would do it. You could even not set an 8 day rule and just let it fill the drive until space is needed for a saved recording if you wanted to, without threatening the non-KUID programs already on the drive, meaning some folks would have prime going back up to 40 weeks (assumes no other recordings) with the ability to do conventional recordings any time they want to, just as they do now. That's pretty powerful potential, assuming it would be implemented that way.

    Even you are one of the rare birds who just never records big-4 prime (which actually comprises a significant percentage of all DVR recordings on average) there is still an obvious appeal to that for just about everyone else.

    But these are new concepts, and from the posts it seems like all of us are really not quite able to completely wrap our heads around the potential power promised here yet. I'm struggling a bit myself.

    The Hopper as it stands might not be a game-changer, but the concept behind it definitely is, assuming DBS vendors can understand the potential and find clever ways to implement it. Here's hoping they will.
  3. Jan 16, 2012 #83 of 122

    lparsons21 Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

    Mar 4, 2006
    Herrin, IL
    Nope. You can watch it in the reserved space, you only need to move it to the user space if you want to keep a particular show for more than the 8 days.
  4. Jan 16, 2012 #84 of 122

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

    Nov 16, 2005
    Why do you conclude from what I wrote that I am not interested in participating in a discussion about the technology behind the PTAT feature? I most certainly am interested, and I'd argue as well that definitely should be a part of the purpose for this thread.

    What I was questioning in the spirit of this point in the discussion (or at least that was my intent) was why you raised the prospect of a needed "cut and delete" capability on individual programs within the recorded prime time MPTS multiplex file which as you claim is impossible, when it appears Dish is only using a "copy and save" method to the user partition of individual programs out of that MPTS file?

    Sorry for the misunderstanding ...
  5. Jan 16, 2012 #85 of 122
    Alan Gordon

    Alan Gordon Chancellor

    Jun 7, 2004
    Dawson, Georgia
    I voted "Great idea; I can't wait for DTV to offer this."

    I'm not sure if DirecTV will ever offer anything like this, and if they don't, that's fine too. It certainly won't get me to switch to Dish, but I can see many instances in which I would find this very convenient.

    One of the few highlights of CES, IMHO... :)

  6. Jan 16, 2012 #86 of 122

    Jerry_K Godfather

    Oct 21, 2006
    Tom Cat,

    Rather than copy and paste post 82 and fill up a lot of space I will just say thanks for some of the clarifications and how you see it might be useful.

    Now that we have a couple of recordings on the HR34 I tallied up the total number of hours. It is 50 hours and the space remaining is 90 percent. A quick figuring on a 2T drive makes each hour of HD about 4 gig. So four channels, three hours, eight days is 96 hours of recording. Or on a 2T drive less than 20%.

    So a good implementation of this feature which perhaps reserves only 500 gig might be useful. If one tuner of the HR34 recorded this way I might become used to it and even applaud it.

    There are some pitfalls with the stategy when the silly kids games are playing on the majors. For example when the kids game with the odd shaped ball with points on the end started up this fall we missed some of my wifes favorite program because of poor performance of the children requiring extra time which the networks gave to the children rather than punish them for poor performance and putting the proper programming on at the proper time.

    So while it would be nice to get these things auto recorded, it would be bad when the networks cave to the children and ignore the adults.
  7. Jan 16, 2012 #87 of 122

    lparsons21 Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

    Mar 4, 2006
    Herrin, IL
    Let's talk about the comparison betwixt the HR34 and the new hopper/joey a bit.

    Tuners - the HR34 has 5 and the Hopper has 3 with PrimeTime aiding a bit in the useage of the fewer tuners. But overall, HR34 has more.

    Trickplay - with the D* approach, trickplay is only doable on the HR34 and other DVRs, not on receivers at all. With E*, trickplay is doable on everything in the mix.

    Recording - with the D* approach, new recording on the HR34 can be done on the HR34 and any other receiver, but not any other DVR. With the E* approach, recording can be set from anywhere.

    There is some guesswork and opinion about how recording would work with a dual hopper setup. Some think it will automagically pick the available Hopper, others aren't so sure. Basically it appears that no official word on how it actually does work has come from E* in a dual-hopper install.

    Unified lists - With D*, all the available things for viewing show in a unified list, just as with E*. But it appears that with E* the todo list will also be unified. With a single HR34 and no other HRs in the mix the effect with D* is the same. But with more HRs in the mix, then no unified todo list exists.

    So far, I think both systems will meet the intended users needs. For the power user, or those with a ton of receiver needs, D* may be the better choice, but that is not a given. Depends on how you use that slew of receivers.

    But from the majority of the users that are not represented here much, either one would most likely work just fine, and the decision on which service is back to which one has the programming you want, just like it is now.

    there is this too. Average home today is 2.6 people with a couple TVs. The younger and more tech savvy are using lots of things to view video and not just the TV. Touchpad, cell phones and other devices are being used by this crowd much more.
  8. Jan 16, 2012 #88 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    I have 2 tb esatas on my DirecTV dvrs, so it makes a huge difference to me, as I have them more than half filled usually.
  9. Jan 16, 2012 #89 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    Those big four are already on a conus transponder. That wouldn't change.
  10. Jan 16, 2012 #90 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    That had to do with mdu and moving from meg 4 to meg 2 and which sats they where on and all kinds of other hardware changing issues in regards to having them on conus and spots.
  11. Jan 16, 2012 #91 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    Can you have the unit automatically save shows from this type of recording, or does it have to be done manually every time?

    Why is it that i feel like dish is always playing games to get to their number counts more so than anyone else, like counting all their on demand programs as hd channels, even though only one receive could actually get those, and they where on demand rather than linear channels?
  12. Jan 16, 2012 #92 of 122

    JonW Icon

    Dec 21, 2006
    Lack of trickplay on the non-DVR's would rather defeat the purpose of HR34 for me.

    The interesting thing is that for those of who us who can get high speed internet and went with DirecTv because of their offerings and not their method of delivery, VOIP could very well change everything.

    Of course it would help if they allows allowed trickplay, and they'll need to widen their catalog, but you can see the hints of what's to come with all the various streaming options we already have.
  13. Jan 16, 2012 #93 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    Do we know if they are recording the big four from a national feed, or are they recording just the lil feeds so each market will be their own channels. And if so, how is that going to work when your in a market that doesn't have Lil or has some but not all, or worse yet, if your in a market in a fees dispute with dish?
  14. Jan 16, 2012 #94 of 122

    Shades228 DaBears

    Mar 18, 2008
    With RVU clients you can do trick play.
  15. Jan 16, 2012 #95 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    Um, what? I have full functionality with my recordings on all my DirecTV dvrs and non dvrs. That makes no sense at all.
  16. Jan 16, 2012 #96 of 122
    David Ortiz

    David Ortiz Save the Clock Tower!!

    Aug 21, 2006
    Fresno, CA
    "PrimeTime Anytime is only available with local channels broadcast in HD, which may not be available in all markets."

  17. Jan 16, 2012 #97 of 122

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    I filled up an entire 2 tb hard drive once, with hd of course, and counted the hours and space and did the calculations. It's 4 gigs to an hour of recording for hd as a rule of thumb. End of calculations. At least for DirecTV.
  18. Jan 16, 2012 #98 of 122
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Give me a day or two, I'll try bring real numbers for DTV recordings...
  19. Jan 16, 2012 #99 of 122

    lparsons21 Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

    Mar 4, 2006
    Herrin, IL
    Really? Here's the real way it works with the HR34 and all the MRV setups.

    DVRs can use trickplay, ff,rew and so forth
    DVRs can't set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR in older MRV setups

    Receivers can't do trickplay
    Receivers can set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR

    So no, you don't have full functionality.

    On the Hopper/Joey setup all boxes can do all things except for PIP which is Hopper only.
  20. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2006
    I wouldn't be surprised If they did overcome that, since I think they have been working on this for several years, just as DirecTV has probably been working on the hr34 for several years. You have to give them credit on that if they did figure that out.

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