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do all receivers have same PQ?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by kenlani, Jun 9, 2010.

  1. Jun 9, 2010 #1 of 31
    kenlani

    kenlani Cool Member

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    I have a h21 in the bedroom and a h20 as my main receiver in the livin room, but have noticed better Picture Quality with the H21-especially with SD

    I realize it probably mostly depends on the TV itself, but have been wondering about it--is there any difference in PQ amongst the receivers?

    and what about sound? I've never really been impressed with my sound through my 5.1 amp, have it connected via dig optical but I seldom get 5.1
    from directv

    I'm thinking of replacing the H20 with a HDDVR and wonder if one has better pic/sound Quality than others
     
  2. Jun 9, 2010 #2 of 31
    gnwes

    gnwes Mentor

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    There is definitly a difference generally speaking. When I had a std rcvr and a std dvr. There was a huge difference, the dvr was tons better. As far as hd to hd-dvr, i cant comment yet. I only have an hd-dvr untill next month.
     
  3. Jun 9, 2010 #3 of 31
    hilmar2k

    hilmar2k Hall Of Fame

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    Small differences in calibration maybe, not in PQ. Nothing a slight correction to the TV can't compensate for.
     
  4. Jun 9, 2010 #4 of 31
    gnwes

    gnwes Mentor

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    What? I used the same tv for my comparison. So the only variable was the receivers.
     
  5. Jun 9, 2010 #5 of 31
    mcbeevee

    mcbeevee 97% Complete

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    Did you use the same tv input and cable type to compare? Most newer tv's have custom pq settings for each input.

    :)
     
  6. Jun 9, 2010 #6 of 31
    gnwes

    gnwes Mentor

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    Yes coax. I used a d10 & r15 to compare. But maybe there isnt a difference in the HD rcvrs. I assumed the question was if there was a difference in PQ from rcvr to rcvr and I have personal experience in the SD realm as the OP was referring to.
     
  7. Jun 9, 2010 #7 of 31
    Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    I can't say anything about your SD equipment but I've had an HR21, HR23 and HR24 hooked to the same TV at the same time. With adjustments to the TV's menus they all ended up being the same picture quality. It does take adjustments, though, as HR23 and HR24 seem to be more pleasingly calibrated right out of the box.
     
  8. Jun 9, 2010 #8 of 31
    hilmar2k

    hilmar2k Hall Of Fame

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    I was speaking only about HD receivers. Anything through coax is going to look bad.
     
  9. Jun 9, 2010 #9 of 31
    TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    You are absolutely right that it mostly depends upon the TV, and that is because TVs can't reproduce signals without some level of compromise, and some do it better than others.

    The largest reason for that is that a HDTV is primarily an analog appliance at least at some point in the signal chain, often from the point directly after the digital HDMI signal or ATSC signal is ported in, regardless how much the hype claims that they use "100% digital processing". Oddly, both can be true at the same time. TVs can and often do process signals with "100% digital processing" but what they do not mention is that the signal that is being processed by digital circuitry is signal that primarily exists in the analog domain.

    It has to be analog at some point, because human vision is an analog system, and can't respond to digital signals without them being converted to analog first. What is surprising is how early in the processing that conversion typically happens. Changes to the signal, even in the analog domain, do not degrade or change things much early on in the processing, it is the later processing, the different types of light engines and display technologies and their calibration that yield the most differences. Again, most of that also happens within the analog domain, because the light engine and display are analog devices (digitally controlled, but processing analog signals).

    But a DBS DVR/IRD is a digital device. Content remains in the digital domain all the way to the set (unless you use the component analog outputs). This also means that PQ is perfectly identical between DTV DVRs, between DTV and DISH DVRs, between DTV and Tivo DVRs, and cable DVRs, etc., all else held equal (such as the intermediate processing cable and DBS do).

    The only way for a signal locked in a digital domain to be altered, either for better or worse regarding PQ, is for a mathematical operation to be performed on every binary coefficient representing that PQ, on purpose. That does not happen in consumer devices, so what is encoded at the DTV uplink remains exactly the same until it gets all then way to your TV, regardless what receiver or DVR you use.

    Short answer? They all have exactly the same PQ, and that is a perfect replica of the PQ that was originally encoded. If the reception is adequate, the picture will be perfect (assuming everything is working properly), regardless of what DVR you use.

    And there is no calibration in digital devices, either, at least not to parameters of digital PQ, which as we discussed, can't be changed while in the digital domain, so then also can't be calibrated. Calibration is something for analog signals only, which is why you see a lot of calibration by "experts" of "digital" TV sets (they're analog devices). The only calibration to signals in a DVR will be after the D-to-A converter that feeds the component output ports, and there is very little there to even need calibration.

    Sound is also processed in the digital domain, and is converted to analog at some point. So as delivered, the sound quality will also be the same for everyone, but how you process it in the analog domain afterwards will cause it to be different for each system. The largest differences can be attributed to amps, speakers, speaker placement, and the reflectivity components and size of the room.
     
  10. kenlani

    kenlani Cool Member

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    Tomcat---Thank You for that answer

    I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and am delighted

    I do assume though that while you referred to "DVR " you were including non-recording HD receivers such as my h20 and H21

    again thanks for a most enjoyable read
     
  11. Jason Whiddon

    Jason Whiddon Hall Of Fame

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    My tv is calibrated by ISF standards, by me, and when I went from the HR22 to the 24, it seemed to be a brighter picture. It looks good, and I would not say one looks better than the other. I wont be adjusting my menus for the box, because the tv is already set to a standard, so it will look the way it looks.
     
  12. BrucePadgett

    BrucePadgett AllStar

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    I am currently receiving standard def only signals using an owned H20. It replaced my first generation Sony SAT-A1, which was about to become obsolete due to the programming guide issue. I can definitively state the SD picture quality on the H20 is decidedly inferior to the Sony's. The focus is far less sharp, and the image looks somewhat washed out. I have consulted with DirecTV's tech department, and despite some tweaks using the format button, I am dissatisfied. And yes, the audio and video hookups are exactly the same as the old receiver's. It makes me also wonder if the H20's HD performance is equally as poor.

    To their credit, DirecTV has offered to ship out a newer model, either HD or SD only. Sometime this year I will get an HD installation, but for now I need to stick to SD only for various reasons. In the meantime, would anyone know of any receivers with very good SD performance? They can be either standalone SD units or HD capable.

    Thanks so much.
     
  13. west99999

    west99999 Icon

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    Are you using an HD TV?
     
  14. peds48

    peds48 Genius.

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    no matter how you slice it, SD on an HDTV will never look good


    Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk mobile app
     
  15. acostapimps

    acostapimps Hall Of Famer

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    When I change hdmi cables I can see a small difference on the HR24 to a Samsung plasma 43 inch, but I also adjusted the tv settings a little so it might or not been the hdmi. But everybody else can't tell the difference at least to the HD/HDVR Receivers.


    Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk mobile app
     
  16. west99999

    west99999 Icon

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    Exactly! Thats why I was curious if he was using one. If he is then he just needs to go ahead and make the upgrade.
     
  17. BrucePadgett

    BrucePadgett AllStar

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    I'm using the H20 on a 20" Sony NTSC set. It was the last top-of-the-line tube TV in that size. The image had been touted by at least one hardware reviewer as near-professional monitor quality. I mention this just to reinforce how unforgiving the set can be when bad signals are fed into it.

    I had fully expected that any image from the H20 would be superior to that from the ancient Sony receiver on said NTSC TV. Clearly standard def is not. Truly an upgrade to HD is in order, but until I can do that, I have to wonder how good the H20's HD image might be given its lame SD output. IOW does DirecTV bother putting out as good a product as possible, given there is no longer any competition from other hardware manufacturers?

    Do successive DirecTV HD models improve on the SD performance? Or maybe the SD-only dedicated receivers have better success at this? I just feel that the H20 is compromised in this regard, sort of an afterthought, not unlike the AM band on a quality radio tuner.
     
  18. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I have 16 H20s and 7 H24s, all connected to plasmas (some 720p, some 1080p) via HDMI. Some of them are connected to the same model bought at the same time. There is zero difference in HD PQ between them. I can't comment on SD PQ, they are never tuned to SD channels.

    How do you have the H20 and H21 configured? Are they both tuning the same version (HD or SD?) of the same channel? Are they hooked up the same way (composite out I assume?)

    When the H20 was launched, it cost more than the D10 SD receiver, so most people with SD TVs would have got those, and only got H20s for HD sets. Since Directv wouldn't assume too many people would be hooking them to SD sets, they may have skimped on the quality of the 'composite out' circuitry in the HD receivers. Its also possible you have one that's just going bad, or there is some sort of weird issue causing problems (grounding, etc.)
     
  19. cypherx

    cypherx Hall Of Fame

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    Don't some receivers have different HDMI versions? Some do RGB 0-255 color and some YUV 16-235? What about things like deep color or other buzzwords you see on some HDMI devices? Maybe that can cause a difference?
     
  20. peds48

    peds48 Genius.

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    It would be a moot point (for DirecTV) to "improve" on SD quality when this is a thing of the past.
     

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