Exactly how does this work?

Discussion in 'General Satellite Discussion' started by zok4me2000, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    perhaps you pay according the definition:
    "Payment model: Customers expect flexibility in their payment model. For each of the services, they should be provided with the options to choose either a prepaid or post-paid or hybrid account."
     
  2. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    As noted, the app is for Outdoors accounts. Do you have DISH equipment at home (not in the RV) or are you entirely RV based?
     
  3. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    I was told that I needed to use the 1-800 numbers to call in and that "any" agent could help me. You are the first person to mention that their might exist an RV specialist. As I've said, the agents I've spoken to so far have disproven the fact that they know how to do the local switching. Let me also say that the Wally receiver knows when it's not in your designated local area as it will refuse to work with any channel. I'm forced to call.
     
  4. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    Let me clarify my statement ...
    Here are two responses from DISH:

    1. "Due to DMA restrictions in place be Neilson and the FCC, only Pay-As-You-Go accounts at this time are able to use the MyDISH to update the locals. You do have the option to chat with an agent through the app to have your locals updated if you prefer, instead of having to call in."
    and
    2. "DMA restrictions is the Digital Management Area restrictions by the Neilson ratings company and the FCC. These companies make the guidelines as to where the locals are actually governed and we have to abide by these due to legal restrictions, Pay-As-You-Go accounts are the only accounts that are able to change the locals at the time as they are not "hybrid" accounts and do not have a home account tied to them.

    DISH has to be able to distinguish what type of customer is using this service"

    So enough said about this as I am way beyond the purpose of these threads.
     
  5. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    That is why I asked "Do you have DISH equipment at home (not in the RV) or are you entirely RV based?"

    There are special laws that apply to RV accounts ... if you have a home account changing addresses should not occur as often as they do when using an RV.
     
  6. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    Sorry James, it was not intention to avoid the question. For perspective, I am a DISH customer for over 10 years at my home. I have been satisfied with the service. Just last year I purchased an RV with a Wally, added the receiver to my account and hence have become as I now know it a 'Hybrid' account. Yep, when I use the RV/Wally I'm changing the local stations as we travel. I now understand why with your help (think spot beams). We are not full timers and bounce between the House and RV units. I had no clue when I added the wally to my account that the activation/deactivation was going to occur between the home receiver (hopper II) and the RV (Wally) (local channels changing as well). Given the situation as it exists, I can live with it and will put up with confusion when I call in to change receivers.

    Back to my education.

    My home setup (Hopper II + Solo Node + Dish 1000+ Antenna) is what I have to understand the actual wiring. You have been kind and patient to explain the how and why my setup is wired. My next question relates more to signal tracing. So ........
    The three satellites are received by the DISH1000+antenna simultaneously. The Antenna does a block down conversion to an Intermediary Frequency (IF) for all three satellites.
    ASSUMPTION 1: That's why there are three output terminals on the antenna
    However, only two outputs are used, outputs #1 and #2 because that how I see it cabled. That can only mean there must be a combiner somewhere on the receiver horn assembly and my assumption is wrong. Can you provide any details on this, i.e. which of the three are combining in the feed assembly? Anything else going on? Can you please address the antenna assembly alone as I know other factors will get involved as we more down the signal path.
     
  7. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    There is a switch inside the LNBF assembly.
    Think of the inputs as six polarities. Each satellite has (up to) 16 transponders on each polarity. Each polarity covers about 500MHz of bandwidth.
    The six polarities received by your LNBF when aimed at Western Arc are:
    110 Even Channels, 110 Odd Channels, 119 Even Channels, 119 Odd Channels, 129 Even Channels, 129 Odd Channels.

    Each of the outputs can output two of those polarities. If you connect a single tuner receiver directly to one of those outputs the receiver will tell the switch which polarity to deliver (and deliver both polarities for the same satellite location, if I recall correctly). If you connect a dual tuner receiver directly to one of those outputs the receiver will ask for any two of the six polarities - one for each tuner. The polarity delivered will contain (up to) 16 transponders ... the receiver will tune the one transponder where the channel you want to watch or record is located.

    The Hopper and Hopper w/Sling have three tuners and need three polarities - which is where the Node comes in. The node takes two polarities delivered on one coax and one polarity delivered on the other coax and combines them on a single coax to feed the Hopper. (The Duo Node does the same except uses three feeds from the dish's LNBF ... six polarities with three going to each Hopper.)

    If you look at some LNBFs they have an "IN" connection along with the outputs. That allows you to connect a second dish or a separate LNB to the LNBF's switch. For example, on my Eastern Arc setup the LNBF receives 61.5, 72.7 and 77 on the internal LNBs and I have a 118 LNB (international channels) feed connected to the IN. That gives me eight polarities on three outputs. Any two polarities on each output and my Duo Node picks up any three of the eight for each of my Hoppers.
     
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  8. NYDutch

    NYDutch DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    The Wally has no GPS or other function that "knows" its current location. You should receive all channels in your package other than the locals if you're outside of your "home" spot beam footprint. If you're within the footprint, you'll receive your home locals even if your current location is in a different Designated Market Area (DMA). Changing your service address simply changes a setting in the signal sent to your receiver that enables reception of the associated DMA.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  9. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    It's just one EMM command, changing a record inside of CAM card, related to the local channels' tier.
     
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  10. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    Hmmmmmmm....
    Uwave transmission to and from of any of the DISH satellites uses circular polarity for maximum power transmission (from the artist renditions, this polarity it appears to be counter clock wise). Every up/down-link signal (all 32 of them) is on its own center frequency per the literature. Are you saying that each feedhorn (3 of them) is capable of discerning two separate signals (read: each has a separate center frequency) and down-converting them into a single output simultaneously? I think maybe i'm not seeing this correctly.

    You say that the Hopper w/Sling (Hopper II) has three tuners. My Hopper II records 4 stations at once and I thought that meant it had four tuners. Again, i'm confused on this.

    As for the no GPS in the Hopper II or Wally, I agree. The Hopper II and Wally have no idea where it's located. But dollars to donuts, when I moved my coach from my home to Las Vegas I could not receive any channel as the TV screen was complaining that it wasn't setup properly (be careful here. I'm way off paraphrasing what I saw, it was months ago). Once I called in and reset the zip code, WHA-LA all was good. I thought that all channels, other then the locals, would be view-able no matter where I roamed, but evidently not.

    Sorry P Smith I don't understand the acronyms EMM and CAM in your response. What is this?

    It is also interesting to me on how exactly these local channels are re-addressed and what's changing internally once I make the zip code change (the TV guide portion) (must be software related tables is my guess).
     
  11. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    yes, and add to the phrase - both polarities as TWO outputs for feeding internal switch
     
  12. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    only by using PTAT !
     
  13. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    not that much: FW using standard filter by ZIP value to allow/prohibit your viewing channels;
    the ZIP value stored in CAM and changing by EMM from data center
     
  14. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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  15. NYDutch

    NYDutch DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    When you moved to Las Vegas, the only channels you should have lost were your home locals. The message you saw was likely because your receiver had a home local channel selected. Switching to any non-local channel would have still worked. Non-fulltime RV'ers have taken Dish receivers from home on the road with them for many years without making any service address changes. Other than the locals, they still receive all of their other channels just fine since they're CONUS beamed, not spot beamed. If they receive the OTA locals well enough at their destination, then they may not bother changing their service address at all for the duration of the trip. We're currently located in a different DMA than the one our service address calls for, but because we're still within the spot beam, we still get those locals. We only get the correct DMA locals OTA of course.
     
  16. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    The polarities on DBS licensed satellites are circular left or circular right polarized. The center frequencies are offset by half a transponder width between polarities. 16 transponders on each polarity. All the odd transponders are on one polarity and all the even transponders are on the other (satellite education 101).

    The hopper could record seven stations at once ... all four major local networks using PTAT on one tuner, two separate feeds on the other two tuners and an OTA module if attached.

    You moved far enough that you were no longer under the spotbeam for the locals in your own area. You should have been able to watch any non-local channel. (The error should have been a "signal loss" error when attempting to tune your locals. The error may be different if you go into an area using the same transponder frequency for a different spotbeam.)

    Nothing more difficult than changing any other subscription package. For example, say you subscribed to HBO and not Showtime and you decided to drop HBO and add Showtime in its place. DISH would deauthorize the HBO channels and authorize the Showtime channels. DISH is doing the same thing with your locals - when you call in they are deauthorizing your current locals and authorizing locals for your new location. That is it for most channels.

    DISH is also changing a set if flags in your receiver that control blackout restrictions ... but changing locals are a simple authorizing/deauthorizing process.

    If you are not authorized to view a channel it will either show up as "unsubscribed" on your receiver or not show up at all. Locals are set to not show up at all if not part of your subscription (which is good as having thousands of unsubscribed channels would be confusing - and DISH reuses channel numbers in different markets).

    When blackout restrictions are in play you will see the subscribed channel in the guide but when you select programming you will get the blackout message.
     
  17. scooper

    scooper Hall Of Fame

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    James - very slight correction - Hooper / Hopper with sling can record 8 channels at once - all the DBS ones you mentioned, plus 2 OTA channels (using the Dual tuner OTA module).
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    The dual channel USB works with H1 but I believe it is limited to one tuner. Something to test.
     
  19. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    After I wrote my response last night I continued to look at the feedhorn electronics. Therein I discovered a detailed description of the feedhorn (LNBF) electronics down-conversion as well as the two antenna poles protruding into the reception cavity, 90 degrees apart from each other. It is these two poles that detect the left or Right polarization activated the condition of the "switch." The switch is a two state device using the DC voltage level determined by the receiver. I believe its two states are determined by that voltage being either 13VDC and 19VDC. All I can say is that its all a bit of black magic.

    What is hard for me to reconcile is that all feedhorns are running at all times. As James pointed out earlier, all six polarities are present in the cavity but only left or right data is block down converted. All three feedhorns are active at once and these data are all mixed into a single IF data set. So why is there three outputs from the LNBF and not just one? If three are always active why does my antenna supply two feeds into the SOLO node (three feeds on a DUO node)? Numbers are not adding up and it appears that the IF streams are crashing into each other regardless of how the actual receiver can filter this.
     
  20. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Gold Club DBSTalk Club

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    Perhaps you need help with the math. While both polarities of all three orbital locations are being received at the same time by the LNB part of the assembly, the switch built in to the assembly only passes what is needed. The DISH LNBF you are using is set up to use 1 GHz of bandwidth on each output (switched as I explained above). Two 500 MHz blocks on each output. The Node takes two blocks from one output of the LNBF and adds a block from the second output from the LNBF ... 1.5 GHz of bandwidth between the Node and the Hopper. There is no "crashing" because the switch and the node only pass non-overlapped blocks. The feed from the LNBF is limited to 1 GHz so the second feed is needed for the Node to get the third block of transponders.

    Your first paragraph is old information. The "black magic" is more complicated than the voltage difference. The oldest "legacy" LNB outputs feeding only one polarity (one block of 500 MHz) used voltage as a simple switch ... the most simple communication between a receiver and the LNB ... but the switch in the current LNBF assemblies are much more complicated. A different kind of magic is required when each output of the switch can be any two of eight inputs.

    BTW: I created the following chart to show how DISH uses the bandwidth on the coax between the Node and the Hopper ---
    dish-moca.gif
    Red: MoCA is used for communication between the Hoppers and Joeys.
    Green: Legacy feeds have one 500 MHz block as shown. DISH Pro and DISH Pro Plus feeds stack two 500 MHz blocks. The Hopper has three feeds (rough placement shown).
    Blue: OTA broadcast channels.
    (The bottom two rows expand the bars shown on top to better show the OTA channels.)

    The new Hopper 3 "Hybrid" LNB stacking (16 transponders instead of three 500 MHz blocks) is closer to DIRECTV's SWiM layout.
     
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