Exactly how does this work?

Discussion in 'General Satellite Discussion' started by zok4me2000, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Look again ;) "feedhorn" is just mechanical part of LNBF, aka conus pipe - no electronics there, Carl !
    As I recommend you before, I'll do it again - read Wiki first, then post
    Low-noise block downconverter - Wikipedia
     
  2. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    This part's details would be interesting to see here... is it called "DPZ" ?
     
  3. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    dpH between the Hub and the hybrid LNB.
    dpX between the Hub and the Hopper 1/2 or SuperJoey (Advanced Client).
    dpZ between the Hub and the Hopper 3.
    Click to read labels: DISH Hub.jpg

    The hubs allow Joeys to be added to the Hopper 3. Oddly enough, a node is required between the Hopper 3 and the hybrid LNB even in a setup with no Joeys.

    I do not have a band plan for dpH/dpZ.
     
  4. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I don't get why they make everything complicated instead of just using splitters. What advantage are they getting from requiring these special parts versus what Directv does with splitters?
     
  5. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    There is a MDU setup where 32 Wallys can be connected to the new DPH42 switch (16 Wallys per switch output using standard splitters after the switch).
    But the biggest difference between most DISH wiring and DIRECTV's SWM is the use of 500 MHz blocks.
    The Hopper 3 and the Wallys are the only receivers I know of that work with smaller blocks. (Joeys do not receive satellite signals and can be used with normal decent quality spliters.)
    Perhaps DISH decided to put their development time in on their GUI instead of on signal distribution?
    With home run cabling (their standard since DISH started) not having smaller blocks was not an issue until DISH introduced a 16 tuner receiver.
    DISH has also used QAM for distribution in MDU settings.
     
  6. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    OK, I have read and re-read all of the responses so far and am starting to get a picture different then when I started. Again, I have to thank you James for your patience and details as it is mostly your info that is making me go this route.

    Let's see if I'm on the right path, Using my Hopper II and the 1000+ dish and solo node.... Given this setup, the dish output port 1 will yield if needed, up to two spectral bands (950-1450 & 1650-2150) and the dish output port 2 will yield if needed, one additional band (2500-3000MHz)

    Scenario #1, watching one TV station that happens to be located on 110:
    - Only SAT Tuner 1 is used and the 500MHz band (950-1450Mz) contains that station (on sat 110). The other two tuners and it's associated bands, are basically in a don't care state.

    Scenario #2, watching one TV station located on 119, recording a TV program on 110:
    - SAT Tuner 1 is used and the 500MHz band (950-1450Mz) contains that station (on sat 119). SAT Tuner 2 is used and the 500MHz band (1650-2150) is recording. SAT Tuner 3 is in a don't care state.

    Am I getting close?
     
  7. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    no,
    you are going wrong side at beginning
    • out2 and out1 are equal
    • internal switch is missing from your vision
    • the switch is controlling from a host [Hx] and provide any 2x500 MHz IF to any output independently by stacking
    • tuners of H are taking any part of of switch's outputs to select narrow [24 or 36 MHz] part eg one transponder
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  8. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Remember, Dish is Ku only and transponders are only 24 MHz wide, not 36 MHz like Directv's Ka/RDBS transponders.
     
  9. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Basically correct ... with the note that the second output from the LNB will still be below 2150. The node will raise it to the higher frequency.
    dish-dpp-solonode.gif
     
  10. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    James, thank you. Very clear now.
     
  11. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    What mechanism(s) are used for the signaling of the switches in the LNBF and Node? Is this a voltage level? Obviously these signals originate from the set top box.
     
  12. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    DPP/DPH/DPX/DPZ protocols eg commands to the LNBF,Nodes,switches
     
  13. zok4me2000

    zok4me2000 New Member

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    I've noticed these protocol(s) are printed on the back of the receivers. Can I assume that the receiver is calling out exactly what it uses? Is it this call out that also determines how the wiring (antenna-node-receiver) is to be done? (For the sake of this question let's assume a single receiver only, no complex setup) Does this call out also determine the antenna type?
     
  14. scooper

    scooper Hall Of Fame

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    When you do a "Check Switch" test, the receiver querys for each piece until it gets to the LNB. What makes this interesting is that through the VIP series, the receivers could also be used with the non-Dishpro series equipment as well - so there are 2 different test protocols it could go through , depending on the responses it gets. Legacy LNBs / switched had 38 supported configurations (and 38 different tests), but DishPro equipment is smarter and identifies itself.
     
  15. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Go to Menu ... Settings ... Diagnostics then "Dish" and your receiver (Hopper or Hopper 2) will show you what it can see. The type of node and switch should be listed at the top.
    Based on that knowledge, the receiver knows what commands to send to the node.

    During initial setup or a later Check Switch ("Test Installation") the receiver steps through the commands sent to the node and switch to determine what orbital locations are available based on the commands sent. On older receivers this scan process can be long.

    In some cases DISH switches can be cascaded where the receiver sends commands to the first switch and the first switch sends different commands to the next switch.
     
  16. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    We don't know all details of newest protocols yet, it was sniffed how legacy cmds working, DP is based on DiSEqC ...perhaps later versions support two way communication.
     
  17. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I found it interesting that the nodes James Long posted pictures of claim to pass DC, DiSEqC and FSK. Since both Directv and Dish are using Maxlinear channel stacking chips, and AFAIK Directv's SWM/FSK protocol is based on the CENELEC standard for channel stacking command set, Dish may be in fact using the same command set at the same FSK frequencies as Directv.

    I wonder what would happen if someone tried a Hopper 3 (or whatever else works with their 'hybrid LNB') with a DSWM30 connected to a Dish 'legacy' LNB, or connected to a 3DR LNB pointed at 110 or 119, with the appropriate node? The Dish receiver may check what the firmware on the remote end identifies itself as so even if the command set is identical I wouldn't bet on it working, but I can't totally rule it out, either.

    One thing I don't know (maybe someone does) is the frequency map for Dish's stacked channels. If they use the same 51.03 MHz spacing Directv does, then I'd have a really strong suspicion the equipment might play well together, or at least be capable of it if you could override a simple firmware check.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Reading the type of node and switch is a two way communication. The old way of blindly sending commands and seeing what signals return has been modified when the receiver knows that it is connected to a solo node and a DPP 1K.2 switch (as the thread starter's equipment would likely report) or a duo node and a DPP 1K.4 switch as my equipment reports. Check Switch on my receiver is under a minute instead of the long blind process.

    Two way communication would be a requirement for multiple Wallys connected to a DPH42 switch. Similar to DIRECTV SWIM the Wally would need to know which feed on the cable was for that receiver. But it is not new. DPPlus has been around for a long time and the ViP receivers have been able to identify DPP switches by name since they were introduced (2005 ?).
     
  19. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I have not seen a map for how the channels are stacked on DISH's "dpZ" feeds. The stacked feeds would be seen from a hybrid LNB via a hub connected to a Hopper 3 or the DPH42 switch on feeds to a Hopper 3 or up to 16 Wallys per output in an MDU setup. 51.03 MHz spacing would certainly work for DISH's 16 transponder per feed stacking.

    Maxlinear has a switch that can do a 24 channel (individual transponder) stack or full band stacks. I assume that is used as the switch in the hybrid LNB (which outputs two dpX feeds OR one dpZ feed). DISH only uses 16 transponder channels on a stack but early rumors were that they would eventually use all 24.

    DISH's topology was still one receiver per feed from the "hub" when the hybrid was released. They have since introduced the DPH42 switch that does stacking that can be connected to one Hopper 3 or up to 16 Wallys per output in a MDU installation. That is the closest DISH has come to SWM.

    I assume the control language is similar but different enough that one could not connect four DIRECTV inputs to a DPH42 and expect it to serve two SWM feeds.
     
  20. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    DISH Hopper/Hopper 2 with clients - Two Hoppers or a Hopper and a Super Joey
    dish-hybrid-hub2.gif

    DISH Hopper 3 with clients (no second Hopper or Super Joey allowed)
    dish-hybrid-hub.gif
    (Layout of dpZ stack is estimated)

    From DISH's Installation Guide for the DPH42 (title and copyright notice added)
    dph42.png
    The DPH42 can support two Hopper 3s (one per output) or up to 32 Wallys (16 per output).
     

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