FCC Accepts Dish Filing for DBS Satellite at 86.5 W

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by rocatman, Apr 15, 2005.

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  1. rocatman

    rocatman Icon

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    The FCC has accepted for filing an application by Echostar (Dish) to build a DBS satellite at 86.5 W. It is interesting that this was originally filed on June 9, 2003. This might be an indication that the FCC is about to allow the 4.5 degree separation for DBS slots since there is a Canadian slot at 82 W. In addition, if you look below the Echostar application, there are two applications from Spectrum Five LLC for building two DBS satellites at 114.5 W which is also a 4.5 degree slot between 110 and 119 W. I would have to believe that if the FCC allows the 4.5 degree DBS slots that any competition arguments against the Dish acquisition of Rainbow-1 would be severely weaken if not eliminated since there would be more DBS slots available. Here is the link:

    http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-258174A1.pdf
     
  2. Big Bob

    Big Bob Godfather

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    this sounds encouraging. It will be interesting to see what kind of challenges there are to having satellites 4.5 degrees apart.

    And I believe that technically it isn't the FCC that allows 4.5 degree separation, that is set by international treaty.
     
  3. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I believe the separation is more where the slots ended up than a specific thought or rule to give 9 degree separation. In any case, the ITU will need to approve the change to the Region 2 plan. Just like the adjustments that US satellite carriers have made.

    JL
     
  4. Jacob S

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    That 4.5 degree spacing would help satellite ever so much on getting more bandwidth for HD and locals. They could even eliminate the big FSS dishes.
     
  5. bavaria72

    bavaria72 I am one too! DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Would/Could they move the Voom bird to that location?
     
  6. rocatman

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    I don't think Dish would move the Voom satellite, Rainbow-1 (R-1) to that location because the real value of R-1 is its spotbeam capability at 61.5 W. The spotbeams would get messed up if the satellite was moved elsewhere. Now after the Echostar-10 (E-10) satellite is launched and operational hopefully later this year at 110 W, the E-6 satellite currently at 110 W could be moved there. I can't see Dish having E-6, E-8 and E-10 all at 110 W. E-6 could also be moved to 119 W as a backup to E-7 there since E-5 appears to be going to 129 W.
     
  7. rocatman

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    Here is another link to a letter sent from Dish (Echostar) to the FCC on 3/25/05 regarding the 4.5 degree DBS slot separation. It appears that Dish has found that there are technical difficulties in having a "multiple feed earth station dish" (something like a D500 dish) receiving signals from DBS satellites only 4.5 degrees apart. If I am interpreting this correctly, it would difficult to use a single dish to receive signals from two DBS satellites only 4.5 degrees apart. So for example Dish could not use a single dish for DBS slots at 105.5 W and 110 W or as another example 114.5 W and 110 and/or 119 W. This would not affect Dish at 86.5 W since the slots at 82 and 91 W are being used by the Canadians. Here is the link:

    http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257928A1.pdf
     
  8. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    A dish designed for even one 4.5º spaced satellite would require a tighter focus than a 9º design. But even if every dish already on the market and installed were 4º compliant (+/- 2º of center) a multi-sat dish would have some difficulties.

    The logic:
    Look at the degree difference between aiming a Dish300 at 110 and 119 from a southern location such as San Diego, California (92101).
    110: Azimuth 154 Elevation 51
    119: Azimuth 170 Elevation 52
    Dish500 points down the middle at Azimuth 162 Elevation 51
    Then go northeast to Bangor, Maine (04401).
    110: Azimuth 250 Elevation 24
    119: Azimuth 259 Elevation 19
    Dish500 points down the middle at Azimuth 254 Elevation 21

    Now design a dish that can see both satellites from San Diego where they are 16º apart as well as Bangor where they are 9º apart - You have a Dish500. Whether that dish is in San Diego or Bangor the dish is the same just in Bangor the focal points hit close to the center edge of the feedhorns and in San Diego the focal points hit closer to the outside edge. Add in a theoretical new satellite at 114.5 and hope that its focal point is small enough to fit between the two feedhorns and not interfere with every multisat dish on the market.

    With an active 114.5 DBS sat a slightly misaimed Bangor dish would land two focal points on one feedhorn (interference) and the same dish in San Diego could pick between 119 and 114.5 or 114.5 and 110.

    The DirecTV tripple dish has a similar challenge, except the three satellites are even further apart. A tweener dish for 119-114.5-110 would be of similar design. The tweener dish would have to see three satellites at a perspective of 4.5 degrees apart from Bangor and 8 degrees apart from San Diego. The issue would come when the second tweener is introduced:
    Center: 114.5
    + 4.5º: Bangor 110/119
    + 8º: San Diego 110/119
    + 9º: Bangor 105.5/123.5
    +13.5º: Bangor 101/(128)
    +16º: San Diego 105.5/123.5
    Where do you position the left LNB so it picks up 110 in San Diego at 8º and not 105.5 in Bangor at 9º but is still wide enough to see 110 in Bangor at 4.5º. That is the challenge. (The DirecTV tripple has an extra degree or two to work with.)

    Echostar has been leading the charge for tweeners - to hear from them that they can't do it on one dish is significant. They would be the ones trying the hardest to make that work. Personally I'd work on an adjustable dish where the feedhorns could be pulled in closer in northern areas and left wide in southern areas. I do not believe it would be too difficult - but would require a new step (set LNB spacing) and of course separate LNBs like the SuperDish.

    (BTW: 4.5 degree separation is a non-starter unless either all current DBS dishes are compliant or all non-compliant dishes are replaced. Much like the shift from 4 degree to 2 degree C band dishes.)


    JL
     
  9. rocatman

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    Theoretically Dish could build a spotbeam only satellite for 86.5 W that would have spotbeams for all of the U.S. except that which borders Canada to avoid interference with the adjacent Canadian slots at 82 and 91 W.

    In regards to my initial posting in this thread, I can not believe it is just a coincidence that those three applications for "tweener" DBS slots appeared in a single public notice. The FCC is moving on the tweener DBS slot issue and it should be interesting how the issue unfolds.
     
  10. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    And accept any inbound interference from Canadian signals that come too far south. :)
    Yes, it will be interesting. I'm glad they are finnaly ready to deal with the issue.

    JL
     
  11. alebowgm

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    I think they would have to go with a spotbeam only satellite that focus's mostly on the south. Not only does Canada DBS use both 82 and 91, but they are both Nimiq birds and since Expressvu is using Echostar equipment, all of the sudden Canadian subs would go and look at their signal and instead of seing Nimiq2 would see something like Wrong Sat, VOOM1 or something along those lines...
     
  12. alebowgm

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    Unless they firmware upgrade of course to avoid this somehow...
     
  13. Jacob S

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    So they could put a spotbeam satellite at 114.5 as well to avoid the interference with 110 and 119? If they used HD locals on those spotbeams that would mean another dish swapout for those customers (or at least an upgrade of another lnbf onto the current Dish500/SuperDish and a different switch to accomodate the additional slot such as the DPP-44 switch).
     
  14. larrystotler

    larrystotler Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Gold Club

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    The ideal situation would be for one company to have the 96.5/105.5/114.5 and another company to have the 101/110/119 locations. This would give both compaies access to 96 transponders each, and having dishes focused at the 3 locations would help to eliminate interference between slots. This would be much more practical that trying to have a dish with the 105.5/110/119 or the 110/114.5/119. However, if they used the torrioidal dish design, this may help solve the problems, but may end up making my job much more of a *****.......
     
  15. bavaria72

    bavaria72 I am one too! DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Dang it Larry I hate when you use big words like "toroidal dish". I had to stop down and do a search on the net. Wow what a huge pain in the butt those puppy dogs will be. But man, the ability to receive signals from birds that are 60 degree apart. Would certainly be nice and it would solve the one dish issue!
     
  16. SimpleSimon

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    Larry:

    I don't get why having the slots as DEDEDE would be better than DDDEEE?

    At first glance, it seems easier to have a 9 degree spread on a dish than a 13.5 one.

    And considering the focal point differences for different locations, I also think that adds weight to my position.

    Look at a D500. The focal points move from cross-eyed to wall-eyed as location varies. Of course, that's also true for the wider spread, but won't the amount of focal shift of the side eyes increase?

    Either way, the center stays in the center, and shouldn't be a problem.

    Of course, ANY of these solutions involves swapping out dishes.
     
  17. geobernd

    geobernd Mentor

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    On a different note - but not completely OT:
    Why do we need so many slots anyway? Why not expand the spectrum like in Europe.... Look at Astra on 19.2E as an example: Frequencies spectrum goes from 10.714 GHz to 12.748 GHz that's more than three US DBS slots together... And you can use one dish, one LNB and be done with it......
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Closer to four slots ... US DBS is using 500MHz per satellite. US is using that "extra" space in different ways.

    "Ku" Downlink Frequencies:
    DBS: 12200-12700 MHz - High Power, currently 9º spaced
    FSS: 11700-12200 MHz - Medium Power, 2º spaced
    KuX: 11450-11700 MHz - New "Extended Ku Band"
    KuX: 10950-11200 MHz - New "Extended Ku Band"

    Most of the bandwidth is there just used differently. DBS uses higher power transponders futher apart in the sky (9º) which leads to smaller dishes on the earth. FSS uses less power in the sky allowing for closer placement (2º) but requires larger dishes. KuX will require FSS sized dishes.

    By limiting the power and spacing them closer together the FSS band has more room than the DBS band in the US. In the 18º where two DBS slots are currently allowed one can put up 9 FSS Ku slots full of transmissions. 1000 MHz of DBS vs 4500 MHz of FSS total.

    I believe our ITU region is doing ok with their assignments ... lots of room for those wanting Ku FSS assignments that cover the entire ITU region while providing high power and easy to find on a small dish DBS assignments for direct to home. Same bandwidth as you find in Europe, managed differently.

    JL
     
  19. SimpleSimon

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    Actually, that looks like a combination of FSS (V/H) & DBS (L/R) frequencies.

    According to this: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf and other sources, FSS is 11.724-12.147GHz, DBS is 12.224-12.675GHz. The 12.75-13.25GHz band is reserved for uplinks. No idea what's happening at 10.7-11.7GHz.

    Hmmm. On the cable to the receiver, a full set of transponders takes up 1GHz. 32 DBS transponders is 450MHz. Looks like left/right ad H/V polarization is very efficent (allows overlap).

    Anyway, we're using a 2GHz spread now - it's just that issues like transmit power, slot separation, etc. are getting in the way. Think about the StupiDish.
     
  20. larrystotler

    larrystotler Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Yes, the manage to squeeze 768Mhz into the DBS band and 864Mhz into the FSS band. That is why I said that they could have created a D500 setup that you could actually split, since * has 50 of the 64 trans available.
    The 110 has 90.625% which is 696Mhz and the 119 has 65.625% which is 504Mhz. Total bandwidtch needed is 1200Mhz, which is exactly what you have between 950 and 2150Mhz. However, as JL has pointed out before, that does take away upgradability due to E*'s reliance on many locations. Would be nice tho.
     
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