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Global Warming

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Buzz112, Feb 8, 2007.

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  1. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Sounds like you have little or no faith in humanity. I won't even attempt to argue that point. Without believing there are some devoted humanitarians, nothing said will ever be believable.

    As for me, I do know a number of true scientists who have sacrificed much in an attempt to prove their points to the world. They will never be rich for doing it but their integrity has prevented them from being bought out by the corporations and politicians. They sincerely believe in the facts that have proved to them that global warming is being effected by man's actions and are continually striving to prove those beliefs.
     
  2. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

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    No, I'm talking about a flattening out of world population. And no, I don't believe those numbers that you quoted are wrong. Based on current trends, numbers are supposed to even out by mid century (around 2050 or so). Growth rate in many industrialized nations has slowed considerably over the last half-century. I'll admit I don't have the stats on hand, but I've read a number of articles on demographic trends over the last couple of years.
     
  3. FogCutter

    FogCutter Godfather

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    I hope you are never disappointed. Too often we confuse good intentions with good outcomes. Dedicated doesn't mean right. Caring and competence are not synonyms.

    Global Warming is the crisis du jour for a group of people that has a legacy of really poor predictions. Toxic pollution, global cooling, Alaska Pipeline, DDT, Oxone Depletion. . .in their turn each of these were going to destroy whatever the really dedicated true humantarian scientists of the day said.

    And when they were proven wrong, they turned their caring zeal to something else, as they will with Global Warming. They've gotten smarter -- they've positioned themselves so that anything that happens can be hung on Global Warming. Hot summer -- Global Warming. Cold winter -- Global Warming. Drought, flood, blizzard, can't remember where I parked my car -- Global Warming.

    It takes more than caring to be a meaningful agent of change. And I would invite you to take another look at your true scientist friends who turned their backs on fortunes to save the world. Was making it financially ever really in their grasp, or is there a smell of sour grapes?

    Should we pollute? No, of course not. Must we pay attention to how our civilization impacts the environment -- sure, absolutely. But there are legions of those who stand ready to exploit peoples' heart felt concerns for their own benefit.

    We have the responsibility to see these constructed crisises for what they are. Caring without discernment gets us nowhere and diverts resources from making life a richer, fuller experience for all of us.

    Don't get me wrong -- in 1970 I was pretty close to where you are now with these things. I observed the first Earth Day and many that followed, bought high efficiency cars, walked instead of driving, no nukes, recycle, yada yada. But when one dire prediction after another fizzled over the years doubt took hold.

    Like I said, I hope you are never disappointed and your idealism burns brightly for decades.

    Oh, last week's Science had a good article. The Amazon rainforest is being cleared again, this time to grow soybeans. Ethanol has driven corns prices way up, so farmers are switching soybean fields to corn. Because the soybean crop is smaller, soybean prices have spiked.

    Cleared rainforest is terrible for growing corn, but soybeans are legumes and fix their own nitrogen from the air -- so they grow well after slashing and burning. Soybeans are awful to eat so the farmers can't use them to feed their families, but soy products go into everything. Now that prices are high enough, the Brazilian farmers have incentive to get out the chainsaws, apparently on a large scale.

    So our move to renewable fuels to save the planet is going to ruin the rainforest and destroy the planet.
     
  4. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    The naysayers always manage to point out some past crisis that apparently amounted to nothing without acknowledging the reasons why the crisis failed to develop to the standards warned about.

    Toxic pollution was greatly reduced due to efforts of environmentalists and people who heeded the warnings. Laws were changed and actions taken to avert disaster in many areas. Who does not remember or can deny the problems associated with 'Love Canal' and other toxic waste dumps? Many changes came about as a result and the Superfund helped clean up such areas. Thousands of other such places still exist and the problems have not yet gone away.

    Global cooling was a short lived item stirred up more by the media than by scientists and never really gained the support of the scientific community.

    The Alaska pipeline had a series of problems that due to public concern and many lawsuits were mostly corrected. Some of the concerns were unfounded through lack of knowledge but others have helped prevent disaster. Had the pipeline been built as originally designed, it would have sunk into the permafrost years ago creating unimaginable disaster.

    DDT was a serious problem but after its ban most of the long term dangers have gone. It is more than probable that the bald eagle, osprey and many other birds would have gone extinct had its use continued. This 'crisis du jour' was apparently averted.

    Ozone depletion has been shown to be partially caused by CFCs released into the atmosphere. Since man has greatly reduced the use of CFCs the manmade portion of this problem has been reduced but not eliminated.

    Of course, the cynics at this site will claim that since man had nothing to do with creating any of these problems, then nothing he has stopped doing was any help in making the problem go away. Good intentions have already brought about some good outcomes. Simply because the problem did not result in disaster does not mean that there was no problem. Some problems have been averted in time.

    Global warming is somewhat like ozone depletion, albeit much worse It does vary naturally to a certain extent and at a certain long term rate. Both, however, can and have been effected by man's actions to occur at a higher rate and extent. I will only be disappointed if we continue to believe that corporations and governments are operating in our best interests in dealing with the problems that they deny exist. The corporations, their lobbyists, their 'scientists' and those who they support in our government will continue to do what is best for their bottom line this year. What happens one hundred or more years from now is of no concern to them at present.

    Anyone who denies that corporations will act irresponsibly if allowed by the government to do so has not paid much attention to the news. Anyone who says that politicians and our current administration will not sell out to the highest bidder has not paid much attention to the news, unless their only source of news is Rush and O'Really.
     
  5. txtommy

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    Based on your statements, I expect that I am actually older than you. My idealism has already burned brightly for a number of decades. I'm so sorry that yours has apparently burned out. It is even sadder to see so many others who have sold out their beliefs for profit.
     
  6. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Since starting the bear patrol in my neighborhood 4 years ago, not a single bear (ZERO bears) have been seen in my neighborhood! So the bear patrol is 100% effective and has prevented any bears from coming into our streets and endangering our kids.





    Of course, there were also no bears before the bear patrol either... but that doesn't mean there wasn't a bear warning crisis, because bears *could* have come here prior to the bear patrol I started... so I still claim that a crisis was averted thanks to my quick thinking and organization of the bear patrol.



    Feel free to replace "bear" with global warming and "bear patrol" with consensus of scientists for enhanced fun :)
     
  7. txtommy

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    And, of course, I presume that there was some government study to support that a bear crisis might exist? Or was this just a warning from the government that bears had weapons of mass destruction and might use them on your neighborhood? I guess since the Department of Bear Security was set up and the bears haven't since invaded your neighborhood the government warnings were correct.
     
  8. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Exactly. There was about as much verifiable and honest proof of WMDs in Iraq as there has been of man-caused global warming. Even some of the same government folks supporting both scenarios, as well as opposing of course.

    But of course we were told we "must do something" because it was "imminent" that Iraq was going to use those WMDs against us... kind of like how global warming is about to do us all in, so we'd better act now.

    Same song, different verse.
     
  9. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    What's been going on for the last few days (seems like weeks) is Tommy and Foggy trying to argue against each other when, if you read all their posts, they seem to actually agree with each other more than they realize. It's been rather interesting.

    I haven't expressed an opinion on Global Warming. I've seen Gore's movie. I'm sure there is some merit to it. And there must be an honest politician somewhere. :icon_kiff

    I've read quite a bit on the subject and formed quite a few opinions on climate change. For instance, I grew up in Union Beach, a small town on Raritan Bay in NJ. I remember a lot of snow every year. And that snow began in November and continued into early March. There was always snow on the ground. No more.

    The snow fall seems to decrease more every year. Now we have "snow events" where we might get a foot or two of snow and then have 40-50 degree weather a day to two later and go thru a period of flooding. The last ten years have been like living in Virginia (lived in Norfolk, 3 years) except for the "snow events". Rarely below freezing except for a two week period in January or February.

    I live near two lakes in Matawan, NJ. When I was a kid we skated on those lakes from late November to late February. And you could drive cars on the lake. Fairly large lakes that were frozen to a depth of at least a foot for months on end. No more. The lakes never freeze up enough to skate on, except in narrow fingers.

    Something has changed. But I live in an area where a fortune has been spent remediating polluted waters and wetlands. I remember the terrible pollution in the air and water. I was a young child and it made an impression on me then. Now, clear air and much cleaner waters. Perhaps this is how it was meant to be.

    Rich



     
  10. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    How were you going to cope with the bear/s if you caught one/some? I live near the Poconos and they have huge problems with bears.

    I know this is off the subject, but I thought a quick break would help and this subject sounded interesting. We have bears in NJ all over the place. And gun laws that prohibit you from discharging a firearm in almost every town.

    Deer, coyotes, snakes, possums, raccoons, rabbits, groundhogs, turkeys, buzzards, hawks and scariest of all, bears. And that's in Central NJ, the most civilized part of the state.

    And you knew that how? If they are in NJ, you think they are not in the Carolinas?

    We don't want to push this tree hugger and PETA thing so far that we become "prey" animals instead of the alpha predator.

    Rich
     
  11. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Well, you have to admit, you prompted this question: How old are you?

    Rich

     
  12. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Grew up just a few miles from Woodstock before Woodstock was nationally known.
     
  13. smiddy

    smiddy Tain't ogre til its ogre

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    Thanks Rich for the recap...

    I have lived around the world so no real frame of reference for time and temperature since I have lived in climates where no snow occurs ever and where snow is nearly year round. Where I currently live the NOAA has kept records since St. Louis is a somewhat big city. I can only reference it back to the late 1800s though.

    What I have read here is a lot of rhetoric without a lot of substance. I don't care to be opinionated on the subject because I don't know where to begin, but I do know this: this is a big thing to over simplify. I would not want to over simplify global warming when I don't understand the entire system. And I suspect most here don't understand it either.
     
  14. Supervolcano

    Supervolcano Hall Of Fame

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    Since when is there a civilized part of New Jersey?
    :D
     
  15. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Since the Revolutionary War. Where was Illinois then?

    I lived in the Chicago area for over a year. Not impressed. Liked the people.

    And the NYC Metro Area is the greatest region, culturally and financially in the country in my NOT HUMBLE OPINION. You really want to get into a urination match over something like this? Go stand on top of that butt ugly building in Chicago and look around. Then take a trip to NYC and go to the Empire State Building or the Chrysler Building and tell me there's a reason for saying that about Jersey, which is, as far as I'm concerned, a massive suburb of NYC, at least Central Jersey.

    Ever see a picture of Washington crossing the Chicago River in a last ditch effort to save his newborn country? We might be a lot more diverse than Illinois, but I'm not a bigot and I enjoy that diversity.

    I'm minutes away from the City (there is but one City, the rest don't deserve capitalization) and can see it from my roof. Got an ocean? Been to Illinois State Park Beach, not impressed. I have lived and visited many places and I was born in Jersey and was always happy to return to Jersey.

    Actually a lot of places in Illinois reminded me of NJ. Glad to see you had the decency to throw a smilie on your post or I would have gone completely berserk.

    Fred is displeased with you too.

    Rich
     
  16. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Well said.

    Rich
     
  17. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Let me rephrase what I thought was a simple question: How old are you? That answer you gave was a perfect example of ambiguity. You could be 99 or 61. This is not a Geezer Attack. You opened the door for this question, please answer correctly.

    Rich
     
  18. txtommy

    txtommy Icon

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    Not sure of your concern but the answer is 60+, in this case 60 years 8 months.

    As to the NY vs. Chicago bit. Give me Chicago any day even though I don't currently live there. Grew up in upstate NY and loved it except can't take the weather now that I'm older. Visited the city frequently and went to college on long island. Can't say much good about the city or western L.I. but I did like eastern L.I. The only thing I liked about the city were trips to Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds but that is ancient history.
     
  19. rlgold88

    rlgold88 Godfather

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    I was looking forward to buying the new 2009 Corvette but since the new law (MPG standard) passed it looks like GM will not be building it or they will cheese it down. Soon to be more laws so it looks like the politicians are in lock step with the gloabal warming crowd. I just hope they dont make law after law and tell us how to live.

    Wasnt going to buy the corvette as I work for Chrysler but these new laws are going to hurt Detroit. Hopefully we can find a way to withstand it.
     
  20. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Curiosity. And a distaste for all things ambiguous.

    We were talking about New Jersey. I like Chicago and Illinois and New York state and obviously NYC. I dislike attacks on New Jersey. Especially when I wasn't comparing NJ to any other state. Just comparing the three parts that make up NJ.

    Rich
     
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