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Have we fulfilled the Dream?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Nick, Jan 17, 2005.

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  1. Nick

    Nick Retired, part-time PITA DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    Today is the official observance of the birthday of the late Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and no one here has mentioned it as far as I have seen. Have we fulfilled his dream of racial equality and mutual acceptance, or do we still have a ways to go?
     
  2. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Banned User

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    I suppose it depends on individual points of view and situations. To some there are no more problems, some even deny there were ever problems, and to others the struggle for equality is just as real and ongoing as ever.
     
  3. Bogy

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    As shown in another thread, we still have a ways to go. Great strides have been made, but the dream has not yet been fulfilled. The prejudice in the other thread sadly confirms that we don't all see each other as brothers and sisters, but "us" and "them".
     
  4. pjmrt

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    I think there is much accomplished but still more to go. There is still some racial bias in america - and since people will be people, there will probably remain so. However, I don't see that as one-sided, as I think many of the modern liberals would make it. There seems to be a political double-standard when it comes to bias. A black candidate carries 97% of the black vote in an election, no problem. The white candidate carries 57% of the white vote, "racial bias tarnishes election". Go figure. Many black's (or perhaps black leaders/activists) have to change the way they view themselves and choose to integrate as well. Its been done by every other group and it works remarkably well. There are a number of successful afro-americans to serve as role models. The liberals trash these people because they also happen to be republicans and/or conservatives.
     
  5. Bogy

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    Leave it to pjmrt to place the burden of discrimination upon those being discriminated against. Perhaps if white people had not murdered the most prominant black leaders during the civil rights movement, they would not have the lack of leadership today that they do.
     
  6. durl

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    I believe pjmrt makes valid points. Bill Cosby has been quite prominent lately detailing how many problems within the black community are the result of their own reckless or careless behavior. He's a man who has lived the "dream" and been quite successful and appears to be tired of hearing blacks complain about how bad things are for them when success is well within their grasp.

    Jesse Jackson has become a millionaire by promoting racial intolerance. If there were true racial harmony, he'd be out of the limelight and the money would stop. When a "civil rights leader" goes in to a poor minority area around St Louis and charges $150,000 to speak to the school, it's easy to see money is his motivation. (To Jackson's credit, he did give them a price break over his normal fee.)

    Whites are guilty of some racism as well, to be sure. But I believe Dr. King would be perplexed by the state of black people today. His "Dream" has come to life in many ways. Black children and white children DO play together now. Blacks have been moving in to the middle class and higher for several decades. Even so, black leaders and political parties continue to compartmentalize blacks, creating a sub-class of Americans that will keep them in power. Until we truly become color-blind (recognizing the importance of culture without using it as a weapon), things won't change as quickly as they could.
     
  7. pjmrt

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    Ah yes, and leave it Bogy to ignore the subject and just launch an attack. But then that's the norm for modern liberals.

    By the way, murdered the most prominant leaders? Do you have someone else in mind beside MLK jr? I think they have leaders now, just the wrong ones.
     
  8. pjmrt

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    I think this is true - there is some racism around today, among both white and black. I think Dr. King would indeed have been perplexed at the black leaders of today. It doesn't seem to fit with his "I have a dream" speach. I really don't think activists like Jesse Jackson want a "color blind" society.
     
  9. olgeezer

    olgeezer Guest

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    Medgar Evers?
    In Topeka at the dedication to the Monroe School (Brown VS Topeka Board of Education) Fred Phelps bragged about being a young lawyer and a part to the litigation team for Brown. Today, in Topeka there are (not counting Parochial) at least 4 school districts. While I'm sure this isn't intentional the 3 suburban districts are predominately white. The Reverend Sheffield is giving a presentation in town today. I would say we have a long way to go and most of us aren't carrying our end of the wagon. That should read 'the Reverend Fred Shuttelworth.
     
  10. RichW

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    There is still a long way to go.
     
  11. mainedish

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    Suing for slavery? That's how we heal this country? Kids born with a mother and no father in the home? Blacks in Prison at a alarming rate. Bill Cosby took aim at blacks who don't take responsibility for their economic status . Buying expensive sneakers and not computers for the child?
    And here is the worst of it . When a black man in this country goes out and works for his family or may not think like Jesse Jackson thats when Jackson really rips into him or her. Calling him "Uncle Tom" . Whites have a way to go? How about blacks?
     
  12. RichW

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    The problem is that white men still wield the economic power, and, in fact, the concetration of wealth has made it harder, not easier for those on the lowest rungs to go anywhere.

    We spend far less of our GNP on education, for example, than we did in the 60s, when education was an issue of "national defense". We are much more hostile to youth issues than we used to be, so a significant number of kids grow up with hostile attitudes (some are even on this board).

    We don't respect law enforcement much anymore.

    We rage against each other over simple traffic issues and try to selfishly "one up" each other on the road.

    In spite of having one of the least tax burdens in the world, and a high standard of living, we blame taxes for our lack of progress when it really is a lack of commitment to work and careers.
     
  13. mainedish

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    This white man earned it .
    Do you believe some people are just lazy? White and Black. That explains why they buy lottery tickets instead of investing?

    We once had a woman try to sue my wife because she told her she was going to a white sale at JC Penny.
     
  14. RichW

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    This white man earned it .
    Do you believe some people are just lazy? White and Black. That explains why they buy lottery tickets instead of investing?


    And I earned it too, but I have to look back and say if I had been born black, I wouldn't been even half the success I am today. And even as a "white boy" I owe a lot to those gubbamint programs you are quick to dismiss.

    The truth is that while I am very financially successful, I had some great people and a government that helped me, plus a few breaks, coupled with an above average intelligence.

    Yes, some people are lazy. Actually we are all lazy to some extent. That is why I say that guys who complain about lazy poor people burdening their taxes are hypocrites. Earning more income, especially for white men, is simply a matter of expending more effort.
     
  15. Orcatek

    Orcatek Legend

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    Has MLK's dream been realized - unfortunately in many ways things are worse. Its a great dream, but special interests don't want equality - they want to be different.

    I only hope someday to see a country like MLK imagined.
     
  16. jonstad

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    I think Chris Rock summed this up in a nutshell as the difference of being "wealthy" as opposed to being "rich".

    He posits there are now many "rich" blacks(including himself), but no "wealthy" ones. And his analogy is this. Shaquille O'Neill is "rich", the guy who signs his paycheck is "wealthy". And like Cosby, Rock chides blacks for misguided priorities and lifestyles, buying "rims" instead of investing in their futures.

    The disparity of income may not be a "civil rights" issue in itself. The disparity lies in that blacks are not their own decision makers, at least to the extent whites are. In Rock's instance, although he wields much power and influence and has become "rich", it is nothing compared to what his bosses at HBO and Time-Warner do. Blacks may become "rich" but only in the white man's context.

    Just as with American Indians, our rationale towards blacks, and all minorities, and this includes Italians, Irish, Germans, Polish, whatever, is all problems will be solved as soon as they become "more like us". It's never considered they might not want to be more like us. Or that they might want to maintain their culture and identities and still be eligible for decent jobs and equal housing and other opportunities. That is out of the question. Once more we fault them for not being "more like us".

    For Europeans generally, the Italians, Irish, Germans, Polish, etc. because cultures, histories and skin colors are less divergent, they DO become "more like us" in the course of a generation or two. Looking at a typical classroom or workplace, it's hard to tell whose white ancestors came over on the Mayflower and whose might have immigrated from Croatia or Denmark twenty, or ten, or even one year ago. However it's very easy to spot whose ancestors came over in slave ships or even pick out those "slant-eyed" Asians.

    Even if "they" do become "more like us" in many respects, it doesn't mean they want to abandon their unique cultures and histories. And we should honor that.

    In many ways, I think much of this is the basis for the current "values" debate. Whites want everybody to accept WHITE values because after all it is a WHITE country and WHITES built it!

    Others beg to differ. And "beg" here is very apropos.(excuse my French:))
     
  17. pjmrt

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    Totally disagree. Opportunity is out there. One must prepare oneself and strive for it. It will not nor should be handed to anyone on a silver platter.

    Money is not the answer. More tax dollars do not make education better or worse. The attitude of the students and their families do.

    And whose fault is this? Are you saying there is an erosion of morality? Welcome to my side.


    But isn't that what many black leaders are claiming. Not enough programs. Not enough taxes. Not enough handouts. At some point people (black and white, and any inbetween) need to realize they have a responsibility for their own actions. Its up to them to take advantage of opportunities and to quit whining. I too have experienced unfairness. I suspect everyone has. Stop blaming others. You want wealth. Prepare yourself then take advantage of the opportunies. Education? Study. Career? Apply yourself.

    Like I said, there are some great black examples out there. Many seem to be republicans though. :D
     
  18. RichW

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    But isn't that what many black leaders are claiming. Not enough programs. Not enough taxes. Not enough handouts. At some point people (black and white, and any inbetween) need to realize they have a responsibility for their own actions.

    There is, however, a "critical mass" that must be overcome. Many "white leaders" deny there is a need or a problem.

    Are you saying it is just as easy for the average urban minority teen-ager to excell as it is for a suburban WASP kid? If you do, then you have no concept of real world problems. Like it or not, those "programs" do help the disadvantaged. I see it constantly and consistently in my own backyard.

    Money is not the answer. More tax dollars do not make education better or worse. The attitude of the students and their families do.

    Disagree here. While money is not the total solution, the cutbacks in educational services have helped dumb down America. Student attitudes aren't any worse than when I went to grade school. Single parent families and divorce have taken their toll on providing role models in the home, but that puts an even bigger burden on the teachers and schools. (I speak as one who is really involved in this process).

    And whose fault is this? Are you saying there is an erosion of morality? Welcome to my side.

    Conservative have never had a lock on "morality". Look at all the conservative leaders who have divorced, for example. The moral breakdown occurs among mean-spirited people across the political spectrum. Conservatives can be really selfish, too.

    Like I said, there are some great black examples out there. Many seem to be republicans though.

    ...and most of them are the result of affirmative action and other special liberal programs which helped them along.
     
  19. JM Anthony

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    We have a long way to go. We live in a society that continues to be divisive. My 16 yr. old daughter is convinced we'll all look "brown" in another few generations. But even if we look the same, she's also convinced some people will always find ways to put others down. It happens to her today from high school girls in the same socio-economic status as her.
     
  20. durl

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    Many people point out various circumstances that affect minorities and the Dream. Circumstances can negatively affect anyone, not just a minority. It's not what the circumstances ARE, but rather what you do about them.

    If poor educational funding kept blacks from realizing the dream, then none would rise into the middle class or above. Since many do, that cannot be a logical reason for blacks not to succeed. The US spends far more money per pupil than other industrialized nations but we get less return for our money so money alone can't be the issue. You can spend $100,000 per pupil but if that child doesn't want to learn, it won't make one bit of difference. On a side note, Jesse Jackson has raised hundreds of millions of dollars for his organization, but how many schools has he built? How many school programs has he funded? I'd say the answer is zero. The money doesn't go to help those who he claims are repressed, but rather the money is used to help him convince them that they are.

    Many blacks DO succeed in America today and there are "wealthy" blacks. (For Chris Rock to say that Shaq is only "rich" and not "wealthy" isn't very logical. Shaq plays a sport that depends on his physical ability. If Shaq got an MBA in college perhaps he could become "wealthy.") It wouldn't surprise me if some companies do make it difficult for blacks to move up but they are the exception, not the rule. Blacks who do well seem to be hidden and are not held up as role models. Instead, kids are shown that being a rapper or being good at basketball is your only chance to make money. There are blacks in America who are CEOs, have PhDs, and do very well, but they receive little, if any, attention. Some are even called "Uncle Tom" or "house slaves" by fellow blacks. If so-called black "leaders" want to inspire their fellow blacks, they should spend time showing what CAN happen if you work hard rather than complaining about how hard it is to succeed.
     
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