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Help - LOS from Balcony

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion' started by Mazinger, Aug 25, 2010.

  1. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
    Hi Everyone,

    I am moving to a new apartment and planning to keep my DTV. Installer will come next week and my only option is to use some kind of non penetrating mount on the balcony, since the management office doesn't want me to mess with the railing on the balcony, neither making holes, etc. I am in the second floor of a three stories building.

    I would need Satellites 101, 110 and 119. Attached is a picture from dishpointer showing the 3LNB on top and then the 3 separate LOS for each satellite. So, here I need the help of you guys, who have much more experience doing this than me. Do you think that I will be able to get signal if the dish is mounted at that location from the balcony, pointing parallel to the building...? Probably, I can push the dish a bit out of the balcony, trying to get some more LOS, but it would depend on how sensitive the management office is. Anyone willing to give me his/her opinion on this issue...?
    Thanks for reading...
     

    Attached Files:

  2. matt

    matt New Member

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    Jan 11, 2010
    You absolutely have to get the 101, and it sure doesn't look like you will.
     
  3. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Get an apartment on the other side. Looks like you're going to need to be mounting the dish above the roof from that green line pointing to the 101.
     
  4. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
    That is the issue... No other apartments available.
    Plus, management won't let me even touch the roof.
    Don't tell me I am fried...! :(
     
  5. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Dec 9, 2006
    Fried/screwed, take your pick, but the 101 shot looks very bad.
     
  6. Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

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    Sep 16, 2006
    Looks like you could get Dish's Western arc...
     
  7. twohour

    twohour New Member

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    May 24, 2006
    Don"t give up ....there is a tilt and elevation setting involved also :lol:....is the patio screened ? a tripod it might help to extend the reflector , just a "bit "":D beyond the railing
    good luck
     
  8. eakes

    eakes Godfather

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    Sep 21, 2007
    I see another new apartment in your near future.

    From your side of the building the dish needs to be above the eave of the roof. From the third floor balcony this might be achievable - from the second floor, impossible.

    A non-penetrating mount on the roof would be best, but this is outlawed plus you need a 40-50 ladder to get there.

    A pole mount somewhere in the common area would work, but is not within the usual rules.

    Time to get out the apartment locater and start looking.
     
  9. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
    That's my hope. To get the management office in a good mood that day, place the dish protruding from the balcony and see if I get some signal. PLUS get an installer that likes challenges.
    This is my first time facing these situations, since I didn't have any issue at my previous place. So, having opinions from you guys would definitely help me out to see options about how to deal with this.
     
  10. Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

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    Sep 16, 2006
    Only problem there is that most local ordinances prohibit anything from protruding unless its secured to the balcony. I wish you luck tho. Hopefully there isnt a balcony on the third floor blocking you too. Maybe you could get a neighbor on the opposite side of the building to subscribe, and then run a coax under the hallway carpet into your apt, or get your neighbor above you to subscribe, put the dish on their third floor balcony, and drop a cable to you.
     
  11. jdspencer

    jdspencer Hall Of Fame

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  12. matt

    matt New Member

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    Jan 11, 2010
    If I was the neighbor above, I would be more than happy to rent you a small space for a small fee per month. Maybe try that if you can't get them to get their own sub. :D
     
  13. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
    Deal. Rent the apartment above mine and everything would be fixed. :lol:
    Now seriously, thanks for the suggestion.
     
  14. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
    Needed 5 posts to post URLs. Sorry.
     
  15. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
  16. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    Hate to say it, but that wouldn't extend the dish out nearly enough to solve your problem. Bottom line is that you simply aren't going to be able to get LOS from a second-floor balcony on that side of the building.
     
  17. Michael H..

    Michael H.. Member

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    May 31, 2007
    Your balcony mount situation falls into the "maybe" category.
    Certain things work to your advantage.
    I don't know if the balconies are covered by the roof.
    If so, the roof eave blocks the LOS.
    If not, the balcony above may block the LOS.

    Assumption: The roof covers the balconies, and thus blocks the LOS.

    If each floor height is 10', and the height of a rail mounted dish is 5',
    then, accounting for the floor above, the height of the roof eave above the dish is 15'.
    For the elevation you obtained of 33°, 1/TAN is 1.5, so the required distance extended from the balcony is 1.5·15'= 23'.
    If your LOS was directly to the other side of the building, you would have to extend the dish out from the balcony 23', which isn't practical.
    Since the LOS is close to in-line with the side of the building, you do not require the full extended length.

    Assumption: It looks like the 101° slot aerial projection results in a ratio of the length of the side of the building to the end of the building roughly 10:1.
    The ATAN of 10 is 6°, the interference angle of the 101° slot relative to the building wall.
    The 23' extended distance required needs to be measured, not perpendicular to the wall, but 90°- 6°= 84° from the dish to the wall.
    For small angles of a triangle, the two longer sides are nearly the same length, so the length along the wall is also 23'.
    The required distance extended from the balcony is then the reciprocal of the 10:1 ratio, 1/10, or 2.3'.
    Since you are located east of the Mississippi, the orbital slot elevations relative to your dish decrease from east to west.
    The 101° slot is at the highest elevation, which works to your advantage.
    Keep in mind, these are ballpark estimates, but does indicate that you have a realistic chance that you have a LOS.

    Comment:

    You may not be interested in HD at this time, but IF you decide to go with a balcony mount (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2569756#post2569756), I would recommend that you consider going ahead with an HD dish/receiver install.
    The orbital slots for HD are 99° and 103°, with the 99° being the determining LOS.
    Another 2° east of the 101° slot, 8° relative to the building wall increases the TAN by 13.5%.
    The required distance extended from the balcony for HD is 1.135·2.3' = 3.1'.
    I'm sure you don't want to go to all this trouble and find that you can't upgrade to HD.

    Additional Comment:

    Although this approach can be readily accomplished, 2"OD pipe, torch, and tube bender... personally, I wouldn't do it.
    I have 30+ years in aerospace structural dynamics, and this configuration introduces a number of undesireable effects.
    Moving to the other side of the building is not really an option, because while it addresses the LOS for 101°, it simply transfers the problem to the 110° and 119° slots, which is worse because the interference angle
    for 119° is twice what it is for 101°, 12°, and the 119° is the lowest elevation of the slots.
    This may still be an issue for HD if your locals are broadcast on 119°.
    The only legitimate non-top-floor location in your building is the southern-most unit on the same side of the building.
    You building appears to have been positioned/designed to exclude DBS installs... Moving (not moving in) is your best option...
     
  18. Mazinger

    Mazinger New Member

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    Aug 25, 2010
    Michael,

    Thanks for such a pleasant way to illustrate the possibilities. At my job I also deal with these kind of systematic analysis, but I just don't know anything about this specific issue as much as you do. That is why I ended up posting here. You are the ones with the experience or the knowledge and I just celebrate that this kind of scenarios exist.

    I would probably have to rely on a tolerant management office and a patient installer to get as close as possible to an acceptable LOS. Fingers crossed.
    Thanks again...
     
  19. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    W.Mdtrn Sea
    Did you look at all balconies of that building ? Perhaps someone solved the issue before you ?
     
  20. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    LOS isn't a "good enough is good enough" issue. You either have clear LOS or you don't get installed, as techs are not allowed to leave you with a blocked LOS. And, honestly, unless you go out and hire a private installer and pay him well, I wouldn't expect the tech to be at your place more than 10 minutes before declaring "no LOS" and leaving. Techs simply don't make enough money to spend hours figuring out a solution to a LOS problem, and will be under pressure to get to their next job ASAP.
     

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