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How are locals delivered to Directv?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by slice1900, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. JosephB

    JosephB Icon

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    Wha? The broadcasters want satellite to be just as successful as cable. It gets them more paid viewers as opposed to free OTA. The NAB doesn't want satellite to be uncompetitive at all.



    There's different methods. Some send their signals via fiber optics all the way to DirecTV in LA, some send them via microwave antenna to a nearby city where they are aggregated and sent up to the satellite, and some are received by regular rooftop antenna and THEN sent to another nearby city with an uplink. There's various ways.

    These days, even out in the middle of nowhere there's a very, very high likelihood that some fiber is available to feed the uplink center. If a city is big enough to support a full power TV station, the phone company will be sufficiently modern enough that there's fiber in town.
     
  2. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Well, the LIL uplink facilities seem to exist to aggregate content from the various LRFs and uplink it to 101, right? Then 101 beams Ka down and it must be received, separated out, and uplinked to the appropriate satellite (99 for locals that appear on 99s, 103 for locals that appear on 103s) Normally that's probably the LA and CR sites, but maybe this site is a backup to those, in case they have issues (either technical or capacity) Or maybe it is always running, and simply shares the load, each doing part of the work, but able to do more in case one of the sites has a problem.

    I guess if one was to dig around in the FCC filings to find where the Ka spotbeams on 101 are aimed, we could see if one of the spots is aimed at Littleton...
     
  3. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Again, I'm not sure how facilities like the one at Littleton which DIRECTV titles a "downlink facility," as in the "NE Downlink Facility" (or "NEDF") specifically in this case, are used.

    But the main "uplink facility" for that area is located at New Hampton, N.H. and called the "NE Uplink Facility" or "NEUF" which like the other regional uplink centers DIRECTV has strategically positioned around the country is to primarily feed some of the local channel or "LiL" traffic up to the various Ka band satellites for distribution by spotbeams to different subscriber markets.

    You see in order for DIRECTV (and DISH as well) to provide local channels to each of the many markets it serves throughout the country (196 DMAs at last count) with only a finite amount of spectrum allocated for it. They must use frequency reuse techniques which requires the use of spatially separated spotbeams on both the uplink and downlink sides of a satellite relay.

    Essentially the principle is to use of few large capacity spotbeam links to the satellites from uplink centers positioned in different areas of the country but operating over the same uplink frequencies which are then translated in both frequency and path on board the satellites into many more smaller capacity spotbeam downlinks which also repeatedly reuse the same set of downlink frequencies and aimed at the areas of the various local markets.
     
  4. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    Perhaps you could explain why the Significantly Viewed policies are different.

    The only thing the OTA broadcasters want is very high carriage fees.
     
  5. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    What's all this crazy talk of large and small capacity spot beams?
     
  6. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting that they use the same frequencies on the uplinks from multiple sites in the country, to the same satellite? Are you sure about that?

    The LIL uplink sites are uplinking to 101 (D8 & D9S) to be broadcast down to the national broadcast centers (and perhaps to NEDF?) for uplink to the satellites (99 for the locals on 99s, 103 for the locals on 103s) There is exactly 2000 MHz of bandwidth available for Ka broadcast from 101. There is also exactly 2000 MHz of matching uplink bandwidth around 30 GHz that corresponds to the Ka A & B band downlink frequencies. So why would they need to reuse spectrum in the way you're suggesting?
     
  7. studechip

    studechip Godfather

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    I'm sure they want to protect their ad revenues, too. That would explain why they don't want svc from outside their dma.
     
  8. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Yes, spotbeam satellites require both their uplinks and downlinks to be spot-beamed otherwise they won't be able to generate very many spots on their downlinks. :)

    That is to say more explanatory, the uplink receiving antenna(s) on a spotbeam bird is designed to only receive from certain spot areas of the country it serves so the same uplink frequencies can be reused over and again..

    For example the Ku band satellites D9S and D4S both have two uplink receive beams which only cover the areas around LA Broadcast Center (LABC) and Castle Rock, CO. (CRBC). And D7S at 119 uplink receive antenna has 4 spotbeams covering the LABC, CRBC, MWUF, and the (frequently forgotten) Ku only "East Coast Uplink Facility" (or "ECUF") in Frederick, Winchester, VA. areas (See my next post).

    The Ka band satellites use a 6 uplink spotbeam receive antenna focused on the uplink site areas of the LABC, CRBC, SWUF, NWUF, MWUF, and NEUF.

    Now some of the lesser regional uplink facilities SWUF, NWUF, MWUF, and NEUF may indeed serve to uplink local channels traffic from the signal aggregation points mentioned in relation to the Ka band payloads of D8 and D9S for back-hauling at 101 back to the main broadcast centers LABC and CRBC.

    But their main function along with the CRBC is act as the final leg in the system to uplink local channel to the various Ka, and for some Ku, band spotbeam birds for actual distribution to subscribers on the downlink spotbeams.

    The LABC also uplinks LiLs for broadcast, but to a lesser extent as a lot of its uplink capacity is used for national (or "CONUS") programming.
     
  9. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Sorry, my bad slice;

    Sign ...

    Yes I know, ... [​IMG] on this one.

    After doing some more digging last night I finally found out, or more like stumbled upon it, the true meaning of the "D" like in the name "NEDF" is.

    DIRECTV happened to make mention in one of their FCC filings that it's stands for "Diversity" not "Downlink."

    And I'm virtually certain that means these sites are redundant backup facilities to their respective primary uplink sites as part of an overall "Satellite uplink site diversity system."

    The reasons for this and it's functionality is likely very similar to the system by a company called "Crystal Solutions" described here;

    http://www.crystalcc.com/fileadmin/files/White_pages/WP008_Ensuring_High_Performance_Uplink_Control.pdf

    And I suppose systems like this is perhaps even more important given the Ka band's greater susceptibility to rain fade and other atmospheric attenuation.

    For reference, here are the network of uplink facilities and the "diversity" backups that I have managed to find so far;

    LABC - 12800 Culver Blvd. Los Angeles Co., Marina Del Rey, CA.
    33°58'56.00" N. LAT. 118°25'28.50" W. LONG.

    LAUDF (CBC) - 3800 Via Oro Ave, Los Angeles Co.,
    Long Beach, CA.
    33°49'44.40" N. LAT. 118°12'43.90" W. LONG.

    CRBC - 5454 Garton Road, Douglas Co., Castle
    Rock, CO.
    39°16'38.40" N. LAT. 104°48'27.40" W. LONG.

    CRUDF- 370 Inverness Drive South, Douglas Co.,
    Englewood, CO.
    39°33'36.90" N. LAT. 104°51'47.60" W. LONG.

    SWUF - 9608 East Old Vail Rd., Pima Co.,
    Tucson, AZ.
    32°5'31.30" N. LAT. 110°47'14.10" W. LONG.

    SWDF - 401 W. Direct Way, Cochise Co., Benson, AZ.
    31°58'22.40" N. LAT. 110°18'16.70" W. LONG.

    MWUF - 6287 32nd St. North, Washington Co., Oakdale, MN.
    44°59'35.20" N. LAT. 92°58'43.50" W. LONG.

    MWDF - 16815 197th Ave. NW, Sherburne Co., Big Lake, MN.
    45°19'39.20" N. LAT. 93°41'50.50" W. LONG.

    NEUF - 56 Packard Drive, Belknap Co., New Hampton, NH
    43°37'24.60" N. LAT. 71°38'32.50" W. LONG.

    NEDF - 1089 Mt. Eustis Rd., Grafton Co., Littleton, NH.
    44°17'8.40" N. LAT. 71°47'56.90" W. LONG.

    NWUF - 106 Grant Way, Yakima Co., Moxee, WA.
    46°33'55.50" N. LAT. 120° 23'53.40" W. LONG.

    NWDF - 1306 Dolarway Rd., Kittitas Co., Ellensburg, WA.
    46°59'55.20" N. LAT. 120°33'57.30" W. LONG.

    Canoga Park Uplink Facility --- 8900 DeSoto Ave., Los Angeles Co., Canoga Park, CA. 91303
    34°15'10.3" N. LAT. 118°35'39.1" W. LONG. (Ka band uplink site used for
    satellite transfer orbit, raising, and on station TT&C operations).

    ------------------------------------------
    Ku band only;

    ECUF - 260 Shady Elm Rd., Frederick Co., Winchester, VA.
    39°7'55.80" N. LAT. 78°12'6.10" W. LONG.

    No associated diversity facility that I can locate for this one.


    Two Ku 8.1m Dishes located at the PAS (PanAmSat) ATLANTA uplink site, which is now owned by Intelsat
    2857 Fork Creek Church Rd., Dekalb Co., Ellenwood, GA.
    33°39'50.00" N. LAT. 84°16'24.00" W. LONG.


    Note: The "CBC" above stands for the "California Broadcast Center," which primarily serves as the broadcast uplink center for the foreign language program channels of the World Direct service at 95W and supplies feeds to the DIRECTV LA service via the 95W, SKY Mexico at 58W, and possibly other satellites.

    And apparently functions as the site for the diversity backup uplink for the LABC.
     
  10. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Do you suppose even those giant 14 meter dishes are susceptible to rain fade at times? If so, that wouldn't give much hope to the people trying to cure it by using an AK/HI dish, would it? :rotfl:
     
  11. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    OK, I get what you're saying. If they've got 2000 MHz of spotbeam bandwidth (for example) crammed into six transponder slots/frequencies (comprising dozens of individual spot beams) that are collectively around 200 MHz wide, they're going to need to reuse uplink frequencies somewhere.

    You're saying the uplink centers are uplinking to 99 & 103, all using the same/similar frequency range, for their spot beams to send to DMAs in that region. i.e., uplinking to 99 for DMAs with locals on 99s, to 103 for DMAs with locals on 103s. If so, these transponders can't be bent pipe, or at least there is a LO in there somewhere changing frequencies before sending the signal back.

    If that's the case, and the LRFs are connected via fiber to the uplink center as previously described, what is Ka @ 101 used for? It must be used somewhere in this picture, but it is no longer clear to me where. If what you appear to be describing is correct, the only reason I can think of for Ka @ 101 is for the uplink centers to also uplink the locals to 101 (in addition to their proper location at 99 or 103) so they can be received by CR and LA for Directv to monitor them. They can't receive a spot beam aimed at Chicago, so they'd have no other way to monitor those channels. Surely that can't be right using all that bandwidth simply for monitoring?
     
  12. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    I don't see anything "crazy" about it harsh;

    On the uplink side for the spotbeam birds they comprise large capacity links conveyed on their receive spotbeams.

    For instance, notice in the Frequency and Polarization plan for the Ka band D10 and 11 satellites in the following illustration.

    D10 and 11 Frequency and Polarization Plan.jpg

    Notice how all but one uplink site can send traffic up on as many as 20 satellite transponder channels each carrying a "statistically" multiplex group of program channels on their spotbeams from the satellite.

    Site 1, which would be the LA Broadcast Center, can have up to 24 transponder channels on its spotbeam.

    These are translated to many more lower traffic spotbeams with a maximum only 2-3 transponder per spotbeam.

    Don't know about you, but that certainly qualifies as high traffic on the up and lower traffic on the down spotbeams to me.
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The term "capacity" threw me when I saw you use it as well ... but your explanation brought the term back down to earth. You are referring to the uplink spots as "high capacity" because of the number of transponders being received from that area, most downlink spots would be lower capacity because they have less transponders on each downlink spot.

    I have not mapped out D10 or D11 in particular - do you have a map showing the uplink spotbeam footprints for those who are having trouble grasping the concept?
     
  14. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    The filings for D10 and 11 do not have listings for the satellite's uplink receive beams beyond the main broadcast centers of the LABC and CRBC.

    So you will have to rely on D12's filings to see the uplink beam footprints for all six sites which should be the same.

    The problem is they are inside a .mdb format here;

    http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=-173021

    I personally don't know how to map out beam contours and have relied upon others like spear61 for this info, So if you know how to do it, I'm sure its included in that database.

    Note: DIRECTV claims that in the representative illustrations of the uplink spotbeam footprints for the LABC and CRBC given in the appendices of the narratives of D10 and 11 are going to be roughly the same for the 4 additional regional uplink facilities.

    http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=-73814

    http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=-73809
     
  15. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Well, the main idea is that since the uplinks are spot-beamed, you can reuse the same entire uplink bandwidth after the first at each site for spotbeam transponder channels.

    For instance the Ka-B band payloads for LiLs on D10, and 11, the first site ("S1" in the illustration and which would be the LABC in this case) is limited to only 10 channels for feeding spotbeam transponders by the need to allocate a large percentage of it's spectrum for the 14 channels needed to feed the national (or CONUS) transponders.

    Sites 2 - 6 though have no such restrictions and may use the entire uplink bandwitdth of 28.350 - 28.6 GHz, 29.250 - 29.5 GHz (500 MHz total) to provide 20 uplink channels to spotbeam transponders.

    Note: D12 is unique since its CONUS transponders on the Ka-A band, so S1 should be able to use the entire B band for spotbeam channels as well.

    When D14 is launched, it will use a similar plan, but is designed to use only four of the uplink stations. The LABC, CRBC, SWUF, and NWUF which will have 8, 24, 20, and 24 spotbeam transponder channels available respectively.
     
  16. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    That still begs the question of what Directv is using the Ka bandwidth on 101 for.
     
  17. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Mainly for back-hauling of local channels;

    Either from smaller auxiliary satellite uplink facilities at various local channel signal aggregation points which send the channels back to the main broadcast centers. or uplinks from the broadcast centers themselves to the regional centers, or each other.

    But whatever the case, the point is that if any of the broadcast centers or LiL regional uplink centers happen to use any of their satellite link facilities to send programming over the Ka band system at 101 for back-hauling, to other broadcast centers or regional uplink sites, or what have you, that is not their primary function.

    Which is to act as the main feeder stations to the fleet of Ka and Ku satellites at 99/101/103/110 (for PR)/119 satellites for distribution to subscribers.
     
  18. scrybigtv

    scrybigtv Godfather

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    Well, the stink raised by the OTA broadcasters didn't work out so well for me and for many other satellite customers across the country. I live in one state and am forced (due to the idiotic "franchised" market rules) to get my local news, sports and weather from "local" channels in a neighboring state. What makes it even worse is that the same rules don't apply to cable companies, which can apparently offer just about any channel lineup they desire.
     
  19. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    From the standpoint of beam focus, a little refraction right out of the gates scatters the signal much more than travelling 22,000 miles in free space and getting bent in the last few miles.

    Makes the satellite Internet thing seem kind of magical at up to 30GHz uplink.
     

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