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How did they do it?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by JerryShain, Jul 30, 2007.

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  1. JerryShain

    JerryShain Legend

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    How did Direct TV get permission from Tivo to use FF auto-correct feature. I thought it was patened.
     
  2. Earl Bonovich

    Earl Bonovich Lifetime Achiever

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    Who knows if they even got permission....

    Any one of these are possible:

    1) They determined that the patent didn't have merit, and in turn would win if TiVo took them to court over it
    2) They found another way to do it, not covered by the patent
    3) Got permission/licensed it from TiVo.

    For the record: DirecTV never stated the reason why FF Autocorrection, wasn't in the DVR+ series was because of the patent.

    That was the most plausable and discussed reason, here in forum land.
     
  3. Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

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    No one knows, but here's my guess:

    TiVO has a backdoor code which lets you do a 30-second skip. This feature might violate a law -- ReplayTV was sued for it. Perhaps DIRECTV's lawyers decided that if TiVo itself used a backdoor code to get past a patent, then DIRECTV's receivers could use a backdoor code to get past a patent.

    The patent itself ignores prior implementations in consumer electronics; I don't know how solid it would be in court.
     
  4. JerryShain

    JerryShain Legend

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    My unit is working so well now I have not been on this website in a while. So however they did it, it was a pleasant surprise. The first time I noticed it, I took a double take and had to rewind and do it again to make sure I wasn't imagining it. It even works well a 4XFF if you are quick enough.
    Now, how about those dual buffers? :lol:
     
  5. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The TiVo patent is for an adaptive system to correct over-shoot. If the HR20 just jumps back a given amount, I'm not sure that would be a patent problem. I could be that D* determined that a simple jump back is not a patentable (is that a word?) thing.


    The following is from US Patent #6,850,691

    An automatic playback overshoot correction system predicts the position in the program material where the user expects to be when the user stops the fast forward or reverse progression of the program material. The invention determines the position where the program material was stopped. The media controller transitions to the new mode that the user selected, starting at the stopped position with an overshoot correction factor added or subtracted from it. The invention adapts to the user by remembering how much the user corrects after he stops the fast forward or reverse mode. Correction factors are calculated using the user's corrections and adjusting the correction factors if the user continues to make corrections.

    Link to full Patent text - http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...6,850,691.PN.&OS=PN/6,850,691&RS=PN/6,850,691

    Mike
     
  6. Montel

    Montel Mentor

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    I think the main problems ReplayTV had was they allowed sharing between boxes of recorded programs even over the internet via an ethernet port. People were sharing shows and posting they had shows...that seemed like a stupid thing to do.

    They also got in trouble for their commercial advance feature as well, but I still think they were sued for the sharing issue and the CA feature was in addition.

    They had the 30 second skip from day one and never were sued until they added CA and the sharing...

    I miss the 30 second skip, and the other features of being able to key in a number and skip forward or back that amount in minutes....Key in 12 and skip and you jump forward exactly 12 minutes!
     
  7. bonscott87

    bonscott87 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '07

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    Could also be that DirecTV simply built a different way to do it from the ground up, thus it's not a patent violation.
     
  8. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    One of the significant features of the agreement between DIRECTV and TiVo signed last year was that they would not pursue patent litigation against each other.

    I'm assuming that this truce is limited to the duration of the agreement and after it expires, DIRECTV will either extend the agreement or be sued on the spot for infringement by whomever owns TiVo's IP at that time (I'm thinking it won't be TiVo).
     
  9. Duffinator

    Duffinator Legend

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    If I'm not mistaken RePlay changed their software to automatically skip commercials and was passive from a users standpoint. That's what got them in trouble. I met the CFO of TiVo right at that time and I thought that feature would put RePlay in front of TiVo. He correctly identified that RePlay would be sued and of course they were.
     
  10. Milominderbinder2

    Milominderbinder2 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    I don't know how they did it but it works great on Slip, FF1, FF2,FF3, and even FF4.

    Good job DIRECTV!

    - Craig
     
  11. Milominderbinder2

    Milominderbinder2 Cutting Edge: ECHELON '08

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    Harsh,

    The links to the press release on Yahoo are no longer available. Do you have it anywhere else?

    - Craig
     
  12. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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  13. bto4wd

    bto4wd Duplicate User (Account Closed)

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    As I under stand it, the HR20 jumps back a predetermined amount of time based on the FF level. The Tivo patent is much more complicated than that as described above.
     
  14. mtnagel

    mtnagel Hall Of Fame

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    Yeah, but I don't think that's how TiVo's do it. How would that work with a household with more than one person since everyone's reaction time is different? How would it learn? That would be cool if you could log in a user so it would learn your reaction time, but after you use it long enough, you just adapt to it. I would have to wait a split second after seeing the program start and then hit it and I would usually be very close.

    Their patent actually has 4 parts. I believe the first is actually what they were using, which is just a set amount based on the speed, just like I'm assuming the HR20 does. The second is what you bolded (which I don't think they're doing). The third is the video thing which they obviously weren't using and the 4th is the user setting, which they weren't using either.

    I think the reason they did it was Earl's #1. I've heard people say their VCR had an autocorrect feature.

    Of course I am not a patent lawyer, but these are my guesses.
     
  15. Mike Bertelson

    Mike Bertelson 6EQUJ5 WOW! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I'm sorry but I gotta disagree with you. :)

    I'm just making up some stuff that might fit what the patent says so I hope this makes sense. This sounds like a simple feedback system.

    If the program assumes that only one person is using the remote at a time, it can use the most recient overshoots and corrections to adapt to that user.

    I don't think the OS keeps an on going log of overshoots & corrections. It doesn't have to, it'll just pay attention to what's going on when someone starts using the remote.

    Maybe something as simple as the remote being inactive overnight and now someone is using it. Then the program starts something like a new "session" or what ever it might be called. It could also have other conditions for a new "session".

    From everything I've read, the description in the patent is what their correction scheme does and I can't find anything that says it really just jumps a little and isn't adaptive at all. :grin:

    Mike
     
  16. weaver6

    weaver6 Icon

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    Well, I'm not a patent lawyer either, but I am a patent searcher, and claim 1 of the TiVo patent makes no mention of adapting the autocorrection. Also, it seems to me I adapted to the TiVo autocorrection, not the other way around.

    Mark
     
  17. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Even if you build something from scratch, that is not protection from patent violation. It can be protection from a copyright violation.

    Cheers,
    Tom
     
  18. DogLover

    DogLover Hall Of Fame

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    I don't know about all Tivo's, but my old D*Tivo (SAT-T60) had a set amount of autocorrection. There was a back door where you could adjust the time, and even set it to zero to turn autocorrection off.

    Just because they patent something, doesn't mean that they ever put it into a consumer box.
     
  19. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    From the sounds of the claims, you could adjust or turn off correction (even tho we've all been calling it autocorrection.) Autocorrection would automatically adjust the amount of correction for you--something I don't think was implemented.

    In my case, I found myself correcting for the correction, so autocorrection would be trying to correct for my correcting of the correction. But my wife has completely different reaction times, so it would then try to correct for her reactions. What a mess that could be (and likely hardly noticable when they got down to it.)

    Cheers,
    Tom
     
  20. jpl

    jpl Hall Of Fame

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    It sounds to me (as others have stated) that the real issue with the patent is the fact that it uses an algorithm to predict where the user wants to go back to. In other words, it's not just a fixed jump back. It gets adjusted by some amount. How much it "learns" from the user... well, it probably isn't that sophisticated. It probably just adjusts depending on how quickly the user hits that play button.

    As for patent violations, if there were any real legal reasons for it, then Verizon would be incurring it as well. My moto DVR (I'm a fios customer) also has an autocorrect on ffwd as well, and Verizon hasn't run afoul of legal trouble from tivo (granted, I have no idea if Verizon pays tivo to use that feature). But it seems to be more "mechanical" - it doesn't appear to adjust for the user. It just ticks back a specific amount every time.
     
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