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How is this possible?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV SD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by ThomasM, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Well, it's all pretty much academic now since DirecTV has now reverted to the standard center-cutting of WITI-6's HD down-rezzed signal. But nevertheless for the record at the time this phenomenon was occurring, for WITI to merely feed a separate letterbox SD version of their programming to DirecTV as you suggest, for use on their Ku band SD locals system for the Milwaukee Wisconsin DMA subscribers, still would not have answered the issue.

    A 16:9 picture letterboxed into a 4:3 frame would be treated as a 4:3 signal by the receiver and appear naturally as a window-box image on a 16:9 (HDTV) set with mattes on all four sides. Or a letterbox image on a 4:3 TV with matte bars on the top and bottom.

    So I'm still theorizing that it was an actual 16:9 SD signal coming from 101 at the time to completely fill the screen with an undistorted image on an HDTV connected to the R22 on the 16:9 menu setting. However, while I realize I am somewhat going out on a limb on my assumption that a SD only receiver is probably capable of performing center-cut on a 16:9 signal with the appropriate flag settings in the satellite stream, until someone else can know for sure that this is not possible for an SD receiver, I'm sticking with it.
     
  2. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    Here we go again!!!

    Yup, the "mystery" 480p 16:9 no distortion image identical to the HD version is back on LIL ML6 WITI-TV FOX6!!!

    But the R22 threw me for a loop.

    When I posted that the R22 went back to showing this LIL just like the others it didn't register with me that I had a 5 second power failure due to a big windstorm causing the R22 to reboot. Last night, the R22 was acting particularly obnoxious and ignoring my remote commands for way too long so I powered it down and powered it back up and PRESTO! the magic returned.

    Here's why. When the power failed, the HDTV (with an HDMI connection to the R22) was turned off so when the R22 started up it didn't "handshake" with the HDTV. Last night, the TV was on when I plugged the R22 in so it knew immediately it was connected to a 16:9 HDTV and the magic returned!

    Not only that, I noticed that if the HDTV is turned off the R22 refuses to display channel 100 but instead displays a pop-up saying something about unauthorized content and use component to view the channel. Unplugging the HDMI connector from the turned-off HDTV allows a different TV with a composite connection to the R22 to view the channel. So it's all about the R22 KNOWING it is connected to a 16:9 HDTV!

    I watched "Lie to Me" in beautiful full-screen distortion-free 480p SD 16:9 from either the 101, 119, or 110!! It's raining again today but tomorrow the coffee can comes out and covers the LNB's one by one to see which orbital slot this programming is coming from! Stay tuned.... :sure:
     
  3. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    "Lie to Me" is one of the few shows on FOX that I bother to watch.

    How about "Dollhouse"? I like Eliza Dushku!! :lovenote:
     
  4. The Merg

    The Merg 1*

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    And soon Summer Glau joins the case...

    Keep us updated with your coffee can experiment...

    - Merg
     
  5. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    YES!! I remember those promos with Summer and Eliza pushing their respective shows but "Sarah Conner Chronicles" got canceled...

    There is someone from "Buffy" coming to Dollhouse too. Love that Josh!

    ....and now :backtotop before the mods yell at me!!
     
  6. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Hey ThomasM;

    I'm just curious, if you go into the display settings of your R15 hooked-up to an SDTV and change the setting to 16:9 instead of 4:3 does the picture become stretched vertically when tuned to WITI?

    Just trying to eliminate the possibility this has actually been a 16:9-4:3 anamorphic signal all along with the proper flags set in the stream, and the R15 is expanding it back to 16:9 and then cropping, whereas the R22 is expanding to 16:9 and letterboxing when on the 4:3 menu setting thus the appearance of those initial bars you saw at the beginning of this ordeal.

    This of course would fill the screen on the HDTV with the R22 on the 16:9 menu setting.
     
  7. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    The R15 displays this channel in 4:3 "cropped" (sides chopped off) mode.

    The local station puts a "FOX6 HD" bug on the screen cleverly placed so that if you are watching a cropped image you don't see it. No matter how you adjust the R15, you can't see this bug (even if it's connected to the HDTV via S-VIDEO). Only the R22 can display the entire 16:9 picture info. :confused:

    Another local station puts a red "HD" box in the lower right corner of the screen during their HD newscasts. There is no way to display this bug on either the R22 or R15 (or see the chopped off picture info only present if viewing in 16:9). I can only see it if I watch OTA on the HDTV or use a DTV OTA converter box and set it to "stretch-o-vision". ;)
     
  8. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Yes I understand this, but I'm asking if you go into your display settings on the R15 setup menu and change the aspect ratio to 16:9 does the picture change in any way, like become stretched vertically maybe when viewing WITI?
     
  9. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    Changing the setting on the R15 from 4:3 to 16:9 does nothing-on any channel. (I have no idea why it exists)
     
  10. The Merg

    The Merg 1*

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    You have to have your R15 hooked up to your 16:9 capable TV in order to see any affect from it. Are you only trying that setting on your old SDTV with the R15?

    - Merg
     
  11. HoTat2

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    No Merg that wasn't the purpose of my asking ThomasM to adjust that setting. I was still trying to unravel the mystery behind WITI's 16:9 SD signal (from 101 degrees?) on the OP's R22. And I was curious as to wether or not this was actually an anamorphic squeezed image with the appropriate flags set in the stream to instruct both the R22 and R15 receivers to stretch to image back to 16:9 and output directly when connected to an HDTV as the R22 is doing. Or to restore it to 16:9 and then either letterbox or crop it to 4:3 if connected to an SDTV as the R15 might be doing on it's 4:3 aspect ratio menu setting.

    Therefore, I asked ThomasM to change the setting on the R15 to 16:9 to see if it would supply a 16:9 signal to the SDTV thinking it was an HDTV which would of course result in a distorted squished or vertically stretched image confirming my suspicions.

    But it's all for not anyhow since the experiment failed, :rolleyes: so it's back to square one and maybe I'll just await ThomasM's coffee can experiment before offering anymore theories. :D
     
  12. HoTat2

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    Supposedly it's for receiving an anamorphic 16:9 squeezed into 4:3 signal with the appropriate indicator flag set in the TS to instruct the receiver to restore (or un-squeeze) it back to 16:9 for letterbox, crop, or supplying directly when connected to an HDTV. But DirecTV hasn't transmitted any anamorphic feeds since the onset of their HD channels, though the capability is still built into the SD receivers.
     
  13. The Merg

    The Merg 1*

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    I wasn't debating the reason you asked ThomasM to try that setting. I was just responding to his post that it did nothing. I remember using it when I had my R15 hooked up to my HD-ready TV.

    - Merg
     
  14. HoTat2

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    So ThomasM;

    What's are the results of the coffee can experiment (assuming you have done it yet) for WITI's enigmatic 16:9 SD signal? :)
     
  15. Keybounce

    Keybounce Legend

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    First, how does the R22/SDTV signal look?

    Second, I may have been misunderstood when I said "Thin-ified". I did not mean that the signal was/would be distorted.

    To clarify: The TV signal is something like 570 pixels across for SD, and 760 for HD. You can take those 760 across and compress them down to 570; this gives an SD-compliant feed that will be distorted if shown on a 12:9 (4:3) TV, but will look just fine if shown on a 16:9 TV.

    What I suggested is that your local station is supplying all of the following:
    1. Normal SD signal for SD receivers and SD sets
    2. Normal HD signal for HD receivers
    3. A "thin-ified", or horizontally compressed feed for display on 16:9 TV's by SD boxes.

    Let me get some clarification here. If you use the HDTV internal HD tuner, you see the full frame, in high quality. Right?

    If you use the R22 on a 16:9 TV, you see the full frame, in low quality. Right? Does this depend on the cable (HDMI or normal) used?

    When you give the R22 signal to a 12:9 TV, what do you see?
     
  16. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    Well, I couldn't find a coffee can but yesterday (10/21) was a beautiful day so I trekked out to the dish with a roll of Reynolds super-duty aluminum foil which I discovered does a great job of changing all signal levels to ZERO. (I'll have to tell the neighborhood kids about this-won't it make a clever "trick" in a week to pull on DirecTV customers who don't supply candy?? :D)

    MEANWHILE, I discovered that my mysterious 16:9 SD signal is indeed coming from the 101 spot-beam LIL satellite. So are all of my SD locals. In fact, for fun I set my fav list to ALL CHANNELS just to see what came from where.

    There are a couple basically worthless channels coming from the 119 like shopping, religious, and spanish channels. It was not so when I bought the 3-LNB dish as several channels I now watch (RFD, NASA, etc.) were on the 119.
     
  17. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    Probably like it would look on any HR2x/R22 set to "480p/16:9"

    Well, as for #3 it would have to be an SD box capable of 16:9 which is, of course, an HD receiver nowadays...

    Correct. WITI transmits in 720p which is what I get when using the TV's internal tuner for an OTA pickup not related to DirecTV.

    Not familiar with a cable type "normal" but HDMI and component support 480p/16:9, S-Video and composite do not as there is no such thing as 480i/16:9. Viewing the program using one of these 480i connections results in gray bars on both the HDTV and a SD TV. Viewing the program using component or HDMI with the R22 set to 16:9 results in an IDENTICAL picture to the one received by the TV in OTA mode using it's internal tuner....but it is in 480p quality and not 720p.

    Nothing since a 12:9 TV doesn't exist. :D
     
  18. HoTat2

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    Well...

    The way I see it now is that there can be only one of two possibilities then. Either DirecTV is transmitting two different SD feeds of WITI from 101. A 16:9 one down-rezzed from the station's HD signal, and a 4:3 one center-cut from the same HD feed.

    Or DirecTV is only sending the 16:9 one and the MPEG-2 only SD receivers like the R15 are capable of internally performing a proper center-cut when fed a 16:9 signal for display on a 4:3 television.

    This is why I asked earlier if someone really knew how an MPEG-2 SD only receiver would respond when fed a 16:9 signal, but I guess no one here really knows...
     
  19. ThomasM

    ThomasM RF Engineer

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    YOU GOT IT!!!!!

    I was experimenting again today and noticed when I was watching a 4:3 program on this mystery LIL channel on my R15 and I selected MENU and MANAGE RECORDINGS the little postage stamp image of the current channel had BLACK BARS on the left and right sides! Amazingly, when viewing the program guide or any other selection that brings up the postage stamp image (known formally as PIG-Picture In Guide) the bars aren't there!

    So I went into settings and changed the display type to 16:9 and the bars were there all the time!!! So the R15 AND the R22 are aware of what this is and it obviously is an MPEG2 signal (since the R15 decodes it) with the entire 16:9 information contained in it.

    Very bizarre!
     
  20. Keybounce

    Keybounce Legend

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    I think this is the point that you misunderstood me on.

    I can take an SD receiver, hook it up to a 12:9 TV (aka 4:3), and see something normal.

    I can take that SD receiver, hook it up to a 16:9 TV set to 12:9 display, and see something normal.

    I can take that SD receiver, hook it up to a 16:9 TV in 16:9 mode, and see something streched wide.

    I can take a 16:9 780p signal, and convert it to 16:9 480p, and record that to DvD. I can take that DvD, convert it to 480i, and send it to a TV over "normal" (coax) antenna cable. It will look very "thin" on a 12:9 display, but just fine on a 16:9 display.

    Now do you understand what I was asking?

    It's moot now -- you've found out what's happening.

    Let me see if I understand this. If I hook up a 16:9 TV to an r15-500, and I set my receiver to say "16:9 TV", I should see a 16:9 frame, 480i picture?

    I don't -- I see a 12:9 frame, 480i picture.
     

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