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HS17-100

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by slice1900, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Bill Broderick

    Bill Broderick Icon

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    This assumption isn't coming from the manual. It's coming from the Beta test, which supposedly isn't allowing non-clients as part of the test.

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  2. west99999

    west99999 Icon

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    Written policy I saw on it said nothing but clients would be allowed on the account. Maybe thats during beta but my guess is they will do away with legacy equipment completely and not allow them in conjunction with the Genie2.
     
  3. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    They're going to have to at least have something like an H25 around for hotels, sports bars, SMTAV systems, etc. The commercial accounts are a BIG deal for DirecTV, so they can't just hang up on those. Those applications, however, have no need for 4k for the forseeable future, so the existing H25 design is probably fine. I'm not sure about the HR24. They can't they allow multiple HR54s if all but the first don't have clients? That way they would just be a juiced up version of an HR24?

    That's not what I referring to. I was referring to higher resolution. SD content looks better on an HD channels than an SD channel in most cases. I think HD sources will look better on a 4k channel than they do now, as they will be run at much higher bitrates, and have high quality upscalers running on them at the broadcaster's studio.

    Couldn't you bridge multiple DECA networks via Ethernet to get a virtually unlimited number of DECA nodes? So the limitation is really software for the boxes. What is the current limit? 10 boxes? 12?
     
  4. CraigerM

    CraigerM Well-Known Member

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    Maybe we will know more about what the HS-17 can do if its officially announced at the DTV Revolution Conference don't forget it starts Monday.
     
  5. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather use clients than H25s. Clients are smaller, and you have more networking options - wireless and cat5 w/DECA at the TV. I already have coax everywhere, but more flexibility is always welcome. I wouldn't choose a TV because of RVU because it would probably stop getting updated and become useless after 2-3 years, but if I bought a new TV that happened to have RVU I'd use it until it stopped working.

    There's no reason they can't phase out the H25 on commercial accounts, and start pushing HS17 + clients. They've already taken the first baby step with that abomination of a 4K solution using an HR54 + 4K client per TV. Assuming commercial accounts can use HS17s as I expect, I'll be picking up HS17 and a couple clients to fool around with. I used to consider OTA vital, but since my local stations now have three subchannels each the OTA picture quality is no better than what I get over Directv, so the only time OTA really matters is during rain fade. That's not enough to make me want to stick with my now 10 year old H20s forever.
     
  6. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, but I haven't seen the usual suspects (Stuart/Scott) mention they are going to the conference. Maybe they have and I missed it, but if no one reports back here or the other site what they saw, we won't know what they might have announced even if it wasn't supposed to be kept secret.

    I don't think the Revolution conference puts out press releases or officially announces products, it is intended for insiders like dealers and partners, not the public/press.
     
  7. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    I think you are missing the biggest reason why SD content looks better on Hi Definition channels than SD channels. It's because the SD channels are that bit starved and over compressed. If they just made them quality SD compression with mpeg4 it won't really look much different than SD content on an Hi Definition channel. You can't make a channel better than its source material. It's amazing how much you can screw up or make a signal look incredible just using different compressions while holding the same resolutions.

    You don't really gain anything using an Hi Definition channel for SD content if the SD channel is producing an image at the highest quality it can. I'd have to check but I believe there are a couple SD mpeg4 channels you can see that might show you how big a difference just going to annoy overly compressed moeg4 SD channel can do.

    As for an Hi Definition content being scaled and compressed different for a 4k channel i doubt it'll be much different than what your tvs internal scaler does today. They wouldn't arbitrarily up the bit rates and such. They'd use the hvec compression format only to make the channels take up less space than mpeg4 versions so you'd gain nothing.

    Just look at mpeg2 Hi Definition vs mpeg4 Hi Definition. Dtv converted to mpeg4 because they didn't have the bandwidth to get as good a quality as they could on mpeg4 as they where getting on mpeg2 due to bandwidth issues.

    It looked better because mpeg2 was over compressed. Not because they couldn't get as good a quality out of it. The best Hi Definition signals I have ever seen where mpeg2. I actually have a special device (hard drive with video output for commercial demonstrations) with test mpeg2 material on it that is unbelievable and better than anything broadcast by anyone today in hd. It's better because everyone wants to fit more stuff in today and so they compress a bit more.

    I semi ponder if dtv will somday come out with a replacement for the h25 that will be 4k capable and enough ram to do on demand. And have it geared towards hotels.

    Moca has a limit of 16 nodes. It's the nature of the technology. But sure you can bridge multiple deca clouds and expand. It's not supported by DIRECTV but it can be done.
     
  8. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    How is bridging multiple DECA clouds via ethernet not supported by Directv? Pretty sure they have to because they obviously have plenty of commercial accounts with more than 16 DECA devices that they support with the iPad app.

    Bigg - there's no limit on the number of DECA devices, the limit of 10 or 12 is the number of DVRs. While you're right that they can be bridged the 'math' I was talking about was convenient as it is hard to imagine many residential installs that would need more than two HS17s either for number of TVs, number of tuners, or redundancy for those worried about a hard drive dying and taking out all their recordings.
     
  9. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about residential bridges deca clouds. I've never seen one thing that says they officially support it, even though there's several ways to do it and do it very well.
     
  10. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I imagine they would much rather support two SWM16s bridged with a CCK on each than with diplexers. While VOS' diplexer solution was a pretty nice technical achievement, using two CCKs is much simpler, something all installers would understand, and avoids the need for calculating loss on a spreadsheet to stay within spec.
     
  11. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    While true I've still never heard of DIRECTV supporting that. Have you? In residential.
     
  12. peds48

    peds48 Genius.

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    Right, using two DECAs is DIRECTV current approach.


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  13. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    Clients aren't going to work in a lot of situations, like for hotels. Maybe in a sports bar.

    Absolutely true. I may not have been clear before. But the same would hold true for putting HD on a 4k channel, as today's HD channels are pretty heavily compressed, so the 4k channel with HD content will look somewhere inbetween an HD channel and true 4k content on a 4k channel. Also, you have situations like ESPN. If they can produce in 1080i/p, then the 4k channel would look far better than the 720p HD channel.

    Not sure hotels need 4k. It's not like it's going to look that different on a 40" TV, and today you're lucky to get HD on most channels, as a lot of hotels have crappy cable with mostly SD. The good setups use DirecTV so it's HD.

    True. Do they do this with residential installs as well if you have, say, an HR54/44, and a bunch of HR2xs?
     
  14. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Someplace we probably differ... the SD content is DIRECTV's fault for their compression. I believe they receive much better signals. I don't think that's an issue with Hi Definition. Anything that doesn't look great there is probably the source in the first place imho. I could be wrong but DIRECTV hd is pretty dang good and especially on my locals they have so many dang sub channels I can't see DIRECTV being any cause for signals not being great. Also they haven't shoved more channels into the bandwidth just to make more channels Hi Definition. They did so that for SD.

    As for espn, never happening. They will never waste the time or money on 1080. They will sooner have 4k or 720. That's it. They aren't going to change that now. Neither will anyone else imho. There's no reason for them to make that tiny jump for millions. It does nothing for them. 4k they can get something out of that though.

    And I should have said hotels and bars etc. I believe the votes could big time benifit from full Video On Demand capabilities and I see no reason to make more than one single tuner box going forward. So make it 4k so it also works for bars etc. and even homes if the market is there.
     
  15. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    The more resolution you transmit in with the higher the bitrate, the better it looks. 4K UHD BDs look better than regular BDs, even when the source material is 2k. My point was if ESPN has a 4k channel, and an event is not 4k on the 4k channel, it may be upscaled 1080, which would be WAY better than 720p, which is looking pretty lousy these days.

    With 4k, you have the tp bonding issue, which causes all sorts of problems, unless you can just disable it and use it as an HD box.
     
  16. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    QUOTE="Bigg, post: 3462822, member: 497244"]The more resolution you transmit in with the higher the bitrate, the better it looks. 4K UHD BDs look better than regular BDs, even when the source material is 2k. My point was if ESPN has a 4k channel, and an event is not 4k on the 4k channel, it may be upscaled 1080, which would be WAY better than 720p, which is looking pretty lousy these days.

    With 4k, you have the tp bonding issue, which causes all sorts of problems, unless you can just disable it and use it as an HD box.[/QUOTE]

    Your first sentence is 100% true when your source material is the cause of the higher resolution.

    You however are probably missing the problem with your using upscaled 4k blurays example. The quality on them is high because they have no time constraints. They don't do that transfer on the fly live, so they can get the highest quality possible scale. You cant do that at directv for signals coming in, its just not possible. Real time cant save as much bandwidth as taking your time to do it at the highest quality possible.

    More bandwidth available does not automatically mean better picture quality in and of itself.

    Trying to upscale that much could easily result in a poorer picture in the long run being done by directv, and not from the source. If ESPN launches a 4k channel, they wont send directv a 720 signal (and they will never have a 1080 signal of any kind) and tell them to upscale it for the channel, they will send directv a signal already upscaled. Their equipment would be totally different.

    Plus, have you noticed, directv does not scale a single channel that I know of. I have never even heard of them doing that actually. And scaling is done in the home by the hardware. They strictly compress the signals they recieve into a mpeg format they feel gives them the best picture quality for the bandwidth they have available.

    Also, again, only someone with a c61k can play anything in 4jk, so there's zero reason for them to scale everything to that format anyway, not enough people have 4k to warrant that kind of expense. Plus they won't ever want to waste bandwidth and money upscaling a channel (which they would need all kinds of permission to do anyway) when its not ever going to have any true 4k signals. so only channels that are 4k from the source will ever exsits IMHO.

    ANd not sure what you are refering to with the bonding problem? what bonding problem?
     
  17. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't clients work in a hotel? Seems like a client is MUCH better and more flexible solution than a receiver for a hotel. Receivers require SWM, which uses higher frequencies meaning shorter runs. Clients use DECA at sub 700 MHz frequencies, i.e. the same frequencies they had their cabling plant originally designed for. They could also use cat5 (either with a DECA to convert it back or a model with an RJ45 jack) or use TVs with RVU built in. Even wireless might be an option if all else failed for certain 'problem' rooms with wiring issues that would require tearing up walls to fix.

    Not sure what you think would be the downside of clients in hotels. Assuming they modified the software a bit so each client had its own list of recordings, and an easy way to reset back to defaults when a guest checks out (they already modify receiver software for current hotel offerings) they could allow guests to record a program while they were out to watch later.
     
  18. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Why in the world would Directv waste bandwidth upscaling lower resolution content? That makes no sense at all! If you wanted a better picture while waiting for 4K to arrive, maybe they could re-broadcast the most popular HD channels on reverse band. Take them in the form received from the provider without further compression, and transcode them into HEVC so you can fit more of them in the available space. You'd need a C61K to handle the HEVC decode, and reverse band LNB of course.

    You wouldn't get a better picture if Directv upscaled that 720p high-quality HD version to 4K. Your 4K TV does that automatically, and if you don't think it does a good enough job you can always buy a dedicated video processor. Directv using their own video processor on their end to waste several times the bandwidth for the same result would accomplish nothing.

    I wouldn't hold my breath for this though, because the audience of something like that is too small, and might even sabotage their chances of providers introducing true 4K channels.
     
  19. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    But wasn't it the DECA requirements, which an RVU client uses, and its need for bi-directional communication to the furthest receiver on a string that was the limiting factor for the number of living units which could be served in a DRE's "loop-through" topology?

    Or are you saying hotels would need to use or convert to a "homerun" topology like with residential installs to use the HS17 + clients, as I didn't think a homerun topology was practical for a hotel environment.



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  20. JosephB

    JosephB Icon

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    If they wanted to switch to clients for hotels or other types of commercial installations, I could very easily see them add an Ethernet equipped client. Lots of hotels and of course just about any other type of commercial establishment likely has Ethernet in the walls (and in the case of hotels, a lot of them installed it for internet, and now just offer wireless only, so the ethernet is unused)
     

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