HS17 (Genie 2) External HD

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by SCG-2020, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. SCG-2020

    SCG-2020 New Member

    6
    0
    Jun 20, 2019
    Does anyone have any real-world experience on using different Western Digital HDs as external drives? Specifically is there any real pros or cons to using either the WD purple vs the WD Red Pro? Both are 8TB drives, SATA III 6 Gb/s, spinning at 7200rpm with 256MB Cache, 5 year warranties and designed for 24/7 high read/write applications. And both are about the same cost.

    WD Purple states: "Exclusive to the WD Purple series is AllFrame technology. By reducing errors, pixilation and video interruptions, AllFrame attempts to reduce video frame loss. WD Purple also features TLER and support for the ATA streaming command set." - Not sure if that is just Marketing or any real advantage in a DVR application or if the HS17 is even supporting those features. Purple has 10 read/write heads.

    WD Red Pro is designed for NAS applications but can be used in any large read/write application and as such has a 600,000 load/unload cycle ratings vs 300,000 for HD Purple. And the Red Pro is designed for annualized workload of 300TB/year vs the WD Purple annualized workload of 180TB/year. Which would be an advantage if 7 tuners are constantly reading/writing to the single drive, especially if 2 of those turners are reading/writing large 4K data content. Also Red Pro has 14 read/write heads and use less power and is quieter than the Purple.

    Attached is a older link that compares the drives (fyi some info is outdated like warranty, cache, drive size) but the core technical data is still good:

    https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2...vs-red-in-2017

    Again looking for some input from anyone with any hands-on experience vs theoretical feedback or if anyone knows what drive technology/specs comes with the internal HS17 HD.

    Understand that external SSD would be better overall but currently the cost vs storage/performance ratio is not there yet so strictly focused on HDDs at this time.

    Many Thanks in advance!

    Update: Interesting, on the WD Purple moving up to 10TB doubles the Annualized workload rating from 180TB/yr to 360TB/yr - although the Load/Unload cycles remains at 300,000. So the question really comes down to - does anyone know for sure with the HS17 reading/writing 5 HD channels & 2 UHD channels simultaneously does it benefit most from an external HD that is optimized for continuous read/writes (WD Purple) or benefits better from an HD optimized for random read/writes (WD Red Pro) - and this is determined by how the HS17's (7) tuner's data are recorded while operating simultaneously.

    Here's some good info on HDs as applied to NAS NVR and dedicated NVR that could be extrapolated to DVRs:

    https://www.vueville.com/home-security/cctv/nvr/best-surveillance-hard-drives-for-nas-nvr-and-dedica...
     
  2. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    25,673
    478
    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    It would be _really_ beneficial for you to start search and reading here, what usually good new member doing before post first question ;)
    and yes, take the Purple WD and use it ! Up to 12 TB tested OK
     
  3. SCG-2020

    SCG-2020 New Member

    6
    0
    Jun 20, 2019
    Thanks for the lecture dad but I did read over 100 posts on the subject here and no one had the specificity I needed. My post is very detailed and asks someone with very specific knowledge some key underlining questions on the technology and interface. Your post of "take the Purple" is of zero value and adds nothing to my request and I see you talk down to others here also. You have over 25,000 posts with under 500 likes so other members find less than 2% of what you post of value. Meaning you don't have to read and respond to every post especially if they annoy you.

    There are pros and cons to using each drive and I was looking for someone who used both and did some real world testing instead of me reinventing the wheel.
     
  4. jimmie57

    jimmie57 Hall Of Fame

    9,637
    746
    Jun 26, 2010
    Texas City, TX
    I have zero experience with this but from what I read, you posted the answer for me if I were to add a drive to my DVR.
    Copied and pasted from your post.
    WD Purple states: "Exclusive to the WD Purple series is AllFrame technology. By reducing errors, pixilation and video interruptions, AllFrame attempts to reduce video frame loss.

    And the fact that the Purple is specifically for surveillance recorders that run 24/7 .
     
    Rich and P Smith like this.
  5. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    33,383
    1,331
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    The answer you got from him is what we have recommended for some time, the Purple WD HDD. It's made for DVRs. I've used large external drives since the HRs came out but I've never used a Purple drive. Don't know anyone here who has. I know this about HRs and HDDs: I'll never use an HDD on/in an HR again. Too much upside to an SSD for me to go backwards. Yes, the SSDs cost more but I think they are worth every penny. Just my opinion.

    Rich
     
  6. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

    10,253
    1,361
    Feb 14, 2013
    Iowa
    Just ignore him, half his posts are telling people to read some long thread and find their answer there, as if it is terrible that someone might ask a question that was answered months ago.
     
  7. SCG-2020

    SCG-2020 New Member

    6
    0
    Jun 20, 2019
    Appreciate the reply, unfortunately the answer appears maybe not to be clear cut. First, as you stated the WD is designed for surveillance cameras and per Wd's website:

    "Uncompromising Storage Built for 24/7, always-on, high-definition security systems. With support for up to 64 cameras, WD Purple drives are optimized for surveillance systems to handle the unique demands of modern video surveillance DVR and NVR systems."

    As the article below states actual use of surveillance systems equates to 95% continuous writing to the drive and 5% reading of the drive (which makes perfect sense, as most people never watch everything their surveillance drives record, they usually only watch motion alerts) and DVRs for the most part operate at 50% write when you record the shows and 50% read when you watch those shows. And the Red is made for basically equal reading and writing duty cycles. Though if used for on-demand backup then more writing than reading.

    What is the difference between the WD Colours - Blue, Red, Black, Green, Purple and Gold - NAS Compares

    Second, per my original post "the WD Purple uses the AllFrame technology which consists of TLER and support for the ATA streaming command set." So to get the "reduced errors, pixilation and video interruptions" the host device (HS17) must support TLER and ATA streaming command set, which I could find no confirmation on any website.

    So my questions were 3 fold:
    • Does the HS17 support TLER and ATA streaming command set?
    • Which is better for a true DVR (non- surveillance application) - a HD designed for annualized workload of 300TB/year vs a annualized workload of 360TB/year (20% increase for Purple) or a HD designed for a 600,000 load/unload cycle ratings HD vs a 300,000 load/unload cycle ratings (a 200% increase for Red). This of course is determined by if the HS17 tuners are constantly recording to the drive 24/7 or if the drive is more consistently spinning up and down the heads (if it only writes during recording of shows and not always pre-buffering/recording the shows and TV guide all the time).
    • Is there better performance with a HD optimized for 95% write and 5% read (sequentially) or a HD optimized for a 50% write and 50% read duty cycle with random reads and writes?
    If any event I have ordered both drives and will being testing both as with (4) 4K TVs I expect to be using all 7 turners to record and then playing back the content on 4 different devices.

    Lastly, on a lot of forums people are complaining about issues with the HS17 and supporting multiple TVs (image recording/play back issues and also shorter HD life) and the issue could be many things but not having the right optimized drive could be one contributing factor.

    Jimmie btw, Great riding mower.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  8. SCG-2020

    SCG-2020 New Member

    6
    0
    Jun 20, 2019
    Thanks for the reply, and I saw those recommendations posted here but as you mentioned, you or no one else I read had used the Purple let alone tried it nor the Red and tested both. As mentioned to Jimmie, the Purple is made for surveillance DVRs and NVRs so it is a different application that satellite DVR recording. And as mentioned in my original post I was looking for some real world experience vs the theoretical only advice I could find online.

    I totally agree with you on SSD and if I could get a 8TB-10TB SSD or for even get a 4TB one for close to the price of a HDD instead of $1,000 then I would too.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0786ZQ1PJ/ref=emc_b_5_t?th=1

    https://www.amazon.com/Purple-10TB-Surveillance-Hard-Drive/dp/B07DYLFYQM/?th=1

    https://www.amazon.com/Red-Pro-10TB-Hard-Drive/dp/B07D3N95GS/


    Rich, I read your SSD thread before I originally posted and there's some good info there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  9. SCG-2020

    SCG-2020 New Member

    6
    0
    Jun 20, 2019
    Thanks for the support, my post was fairly detailed and asked some specific questions so I started a new post (after much research) so as not to pollute/derail someone else's thread and also to make it very easy to totally ignore this one if everyone had zero interest in my questions, so I'm not so sure why he came at me like that.

    It just seemed like The Oracle of the site (without using either drive let alone testing both) deemed the Purple is obviously better and my detailed blatant questions on why it may or may not be (without us technically understanding exacting how the HS17 and each drive was designed to be used) was deemed blaspheme and the insurrection needed to be extinguished immediately.

    Although that does happen on a lot of forums these days.

    - Slice1900 your avatar looks like it would make a cool tattoo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  10. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    33,383
    1,331
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    The first SSD I bought was a 1TB Samsung EVO. Haven't had any issues with it and I see this on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Inch...1486585&s=gateway&sprefix=4tb+,aps,141&sr=8-3

    Not sure why you would need that much capacity but the price wouldn't put me off if I had a reason for purchasing it. I also saw the "Pro" model of that 4TB SSD on Amazon for about a grand. Give that a year and the price will surely drop quite a bit as will the price of the linked SSD. I paid about $200 for the 1TB ten months ago and that costs about $130 now. Just me, just my opinions and I am so tired of HDDs...

    Rich
     
  11. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    33,383
    1,331
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    We based the opinions of the HDDs on what we've read and seen. I've spent some time talking to the folks at Seagate and WD about the HDDs and neither one of them ever offered any advice about using their HDDs for DVRs other than say they don't support using the HDDs in DVRs. That was a few years ago and suddenly we started to see reports about the Purple WD HDDs. Made to use in some kind of DVR. That's pretty much what those recommendations are about. Seemed like the best we could do. I'll still give that recommendation to anyone that asks about HDDs...with a notation of how much better the DVRs work with SSDs in or on them. As I said, I'm done with HDDs but I'll take the blame for the recommendations about the Purple WDs.

    Rich
     
  12. SCG-2020

    SCG-2020 New Member

    6
    0
    Jun 20, 2019
    That's very interesting as DTV, Dish and Tivo have been selling/leasing hundreds of thousands of DVRs for years and years and they all come with HDDs. So if the top 2 manufactures "say they don't support using HDDs in DVRs" then that really only leaves Toshiba, Hitachi or Samsung and I don't see anything special about their HDDs that are any better suited for satellite DVRs.

    In fact all the DVRs I have disassembled have had high volume read/write HDDs with highly rated annualized workloads and/or highly rated load/unload cycle ratings (think NAS HDDS) and they have included Seagate and WD HDDs and none have been Purple. The key thing to remember is that we are not supercharging or turbo charging a 4 cylinder motor to get some super performance and thereby stressing the motor, we are only extending the storage capacity and we are only using external drives so we don't have to open up the DVR and void the warranty. Otherwise we would just replace the internal HDD like I did with all my out of warranty HR24s.

    That's why I asked in my original post what exact 2TB HDDs is DTV using in the HS17 - as I bet it's one of the big 5 NAS HDD manufacturers as I've seen in all other DVRs. And because DTV is using different manufacturers to build those HS17s (think HS17-100 and HS17-500) and they most likely come with different HDDs also from different manufacturers as long as they meet spec. Because after the HDD shortage a few years ago no one wants to single source.

    Yea if I only had 1 non-4K TV and DTV supported USB 3.1 (which they don't and appear never will) then I would go for a high speed 1TB SSD like this one from Sammy:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073H552FJ/

    https://cdn.fstoppers.com/styles/large-16-9/s3/lead/2017/10/samsung-t5-portable-ssd-review.jpg

    But it appears that I'm not the only one with multiple 4K TVs - needing more TB storage space (to replace my three HR24 with 2TB drives each) - as here is a DTV Authorized dealer offering up to 10TB of storage (albeit for those with more money that knowledge on doing it themselves).

    DIRECTV GENIE (HR54) HOME MEDIA SERVER

    They also offer the elusive DIRECTV HD DVR Copy Service for $59.99
    "We copy your settings and programming to the new drive - you lose nothing! Your capacity will simply increase!"

    DIRECTV Genie and HD-DVR Upgrades (HR20, HR21, HR22, HR23, HR24, HR34, HR44 & HR54)

    But you have to buy the drives from them and pay those sky-high prices for the drives and guess what they state the drives are either Seagate or WD.

    And separately they offer a RAID dual-drive external backup solution too, so you don't lose your data/programming if one of your drives fail.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  13. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    33,383
    1,331
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    Never had a 17, no idea which HDD is in them. But I'd be surprised if it wasn't a Seagate. Yeah, Weaknees has high prices, prices that can be ignored because we can do almost everything they can at a much better price line. I had to put up with them for several years when were in SD mode with D* TiVos. Paid the price because I didn't know any better.

    I get not wanting to spring for several SSDs, I thought you were getting a 17. If I had a 17 and wanted more capacity I'd spring for the larger SSD. Just me, just an opinion.

    Rich
     
  14. sangs

    sangs AllStar

    660
    86
    Apr 2, 2008
    NE New Jersey
  15. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    33,383
    1,331
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    Search eBay for a Thermaltake dock. One of the members here just bought one there for about twenty bucks. Don't be afraid of buying a used one, there's not much that can go wrong with them. I bought one on Amazon a couple months ago, here's a link to that one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001A4HAFS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Any external device will work as long as it has an eSATA port on it, I think.

    Rich
     
    sangs likes this.
  16. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

    33,383
    1,331
    Feb 22, 2007
    Piscataway, NJ
    sangs likes this.

Share This Page

spam firewall