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In Light of the Easter Day

Discussion in 'The OT' started by alfbinet, Apr 16, 2006.

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  1. alfbinet

    alfbinet Godfather

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    Has anyone (of course they have) wondered why God condemed Judas to everlasting Hell for sending Christ on his mission to save mankind? The man was born to burn in hell for what he was destined to do. A paradox?

    There doesn't seem to be black and white in the question.
     
  2. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

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    A bit more of a black and white question than you suppose, however. God knew what would take place. But people still have free choice. Judas had a chance to choose a different course of action right up to the end. If Judas had not betrayed Jesus, it would have still happened. The earlier scriptures which foretold the events might have been different, as God would still have known how it would happen. And God was always in control, He could have prevented the crucifiction - and left us all with hell as an inheritance. But that was not His plan. Anyway, Judas chose his path, just like everyone else gets too. He chose badly.

    Even on our puny human scale, as an example, I know bullets from guns kill. I know drug gangs have guns. So I know members of drug gangs will kill someone. So knowing this, am I responsible because a gang member is sentenced to death for murder of someone? God could have made us all robots - he didn't. He gave us free will, the ability to choose. God gave Judas every opportunity to chose better. He walked with Jesus and didn't get the picture. I'm sure God was grieved to see Judas choose hell by his actions. He doesn't want anyone to be lost.
     
  3. alfbinet

    alfbinet Godfather

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    So you are saying if it was not Judas God would have found another someone else to Damn?
     
  4. alfbinet

    alfbinet Godfather

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    May 18, 2002
    In order to fufill prophecy.
     
  5. Fifty Caliber

    Fifty Caliber Banned User

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    No one ever said life was fair.
     
  6. alfbinet

    alfbinet Godfather

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    Never said life was fair...just not simplistic nor black and white. Something I learned in grade school. I think I had great teachers. Grade shcool, junior high school, high school, college, graduate school, and life.
     
  7. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

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    I'm saying God had a plan to redeem mankind from the penalty of sin. The penalty of sin is death, and God was going to do all that can be done to redeem mankind from that. That meant sending His own ONLY son to die in our place. All we had to do is accept that gift. If we choose not to, we choose badly. God has done far more than any of us deserve.

    Had Judas chosen differently, I suspect the chief priests would have found another way to arrest Jesus before Passover. Somehow, the events would have played out. People have free will. I've explained that. Just because someone chooses badly, doesn't absolve them of the responsibility of that choice. Judas chose his path and reaped its reward.
     
  8. wisdom

    wisdom Legend

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    How far out there do you want to go on this subject?

    There was this supposed time traveler name John Titor that showed up on some chat boards around 2000. He claimed alot of things, and you can believe what you want about it, but he had an interesting supposed insight on destiny. He said that there is a new parallel dimension made for every decision. But because God is outside in the superverse, He judges all of the options as as whole including the whole yin/yang thing. For every decision made right a wrong decision is made in another universe. So in our dimension, Judas turned Christ in. In another perhaps Judas founded the Church. Who knows. Ultimately, it is assumed that Christ was always crucified. This might explain why God is able to know your free will decision before you make it. Because all variations already existed.

    OK, before someone ties me into the straight jacket, keep in mind that some of the things he has said have come to pass.

    It's kind of addictive to read, so proceed with caution.

    John Titor
     
  9. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Jesus apparently didn't have free will, if he was going to die that way... he apparently didn't have a choice did he?

    'course the best question to ask is... why was it that in order for God to forgive us we had to kill his son?

    It is very difficult to wrap your head around the concept that a benevolent God would reward folks for killing his son... and that he knew it was going to happen and allowed it to happen. If that's how he treats "family", how's he going to treat the rest of us?
     
  10. wisdom

    wisdom Legend

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    Keep in mind that Christ was God, so in a way, He was sacrificing Himself to save all of us. He had to die otherwise we would all still be sacrificing animals to push our sins forward (never to be forgiven). An interesting way out of a contract.
     
  11. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    Wait a minute! You can't just dismiss predestination by muttering the magic incantation "free choice".:nono:

    Here is your premise-

    "God knew what would take place."

    Yet-

    "Judas had a chance to choose a different course of action right up to the end."
    :scratch::scratchin:confused:

    So God knew Judas was going to betray Jesus. And I'm assuming here so correct me if I'm wrong. But God knew all this long before the actual betrayal. I suspect before Judas was even born. Oh, what the hell! God knew it before He created the Universe. Am I wrong?

    And if I'm not wrong, then where the heck is Judas's "free choice"??? If God knew the outcome, let's say for eternity, how could Judas POSSIBILY have made a different choice?

    You can't have it both ways. There is either predestination where the "fall of every sparrow" is known and observed by the Almighty. Or, we make "free choices" and/or things happen by random chance. The two options are mutually exclusive. For all the discussion and debate in the world, that is the ONLY thing that is indisputably "black and white"!

    Your only out at this point is Wisdom's "alternate universes".:rolling: In a parallel universe perhaps Judas would not have "chosen" to betray Jesus. But a couple other questions then arise. Would a parallel universe have a different God? And regardless if God was the same or different, would that God "know" it was not going to be Judas? Would that universe be predestined too? So, chances are, even a parallel Judas in parallel universe making a "parallel choice" would STILL not be doing it of his own free choice!

    So, what's it gonna be? You going to grasp on to the alternate universe straw???


    PLEASE, PLEASE grasp onto the alternate universe straw!!!:p;)

    Well anyway, thanks guys. This thread has been hilarious!:uglyhamme

    I haven't laughed this hard in weeks! Predestination! Free will! Alternate universes!:bink: What more could a skeptic ask for?:D
     
  12. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    And you chose "Wisdom" as a user name?:hurah:

    This Titor guy is either a serious whack job or a serious con-man. I suspect the latter. I don't know his angle, but if I did, it wouldn't be a very good con now would it.

    Just a cursory glance at the "evidence" reveals a couple anomalies though.

    First, this "time-traveler" supposedly surfaces in 2000. You'd think he could have given us a little heads up about 9/11? Certainly even in 2036, even after the global nuclear war of 2015:lol: people would still know about that event.

    Second, apparently he was not trying to hide the fact he was a time-traveller, even using "Timetravel_0" as a screen name, even as he posted on "time travel-related message boards claiming to be a time-traveller".:sure:

    Not only that, his "time-machine" was a Back to the Future-esque "1966 Chevrolet Corvette Convertible"!:rotfl:

    So, given the fact he was not only advertising his "travels", but practically SCREAMING about it. It certainly would have been easy enough to offer up some real proof. Some coins minted in 2025 or so would have been nice. Or how about ANY electronic device that had not been invented yet? He could have taken somebody for a ride in his 1966 Chevrolet Corvette Convertible time machine!:rolling::rolleyes:

    OK, I've had enough fun. I told you this thread was hilarious!
     
  13. Richard King

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    The guy is multitasking.
     
  14. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

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    No Jesus did have free will. Otherwise, why would Satan have wasted his time trying to tempt Christ after the 40 day fast at the start of His ministry? But Christ's will was to do the will of God, accomplish the plan to save mankind, die and be resurrected. That is not to say Christ "felt good" about all that would happen to him to get there, but it was a burden he shouldered.

    To answer your second question, (I think it was already answered, but if not... :) ) - God is as much a just God as He is a loving, forgiving God. God told man, the payment for sin (for rebellion) is sin - please don't do it, I gave you this fantastic garden, you only have one thing not to do... come on don't be an idiot. (the HPV highly paraphrased version). Man was an idiot, still is. So God gave man a temporary "out", sacrifices of animals to help man understand just how seriously God took the matter of sin. Still, that was supposed to get man to realize just how filthy his ways were compared to God and that the blood of herds of goats could not really absolve them - that man himself needed to change. Mankind was still an idiot. God sent man prophets and teachers - man killed them. Finally man sent His own Son, knowing some would still not listen and that His Son would shoulder the sin of everyone, yours and mine, and face the penalty for sin due you and I. He did and then He defeated death in the resurrection, and some believed and were changed because of it. Without the resurrection, its just another story. The resurrection secured our freedom.

    So why did Jesus have to die? None of us were anywhere near good enough to pay the price for our sins, much less the sins of everyone. God, whose nature is so perfect that He cannot even stand to look at sin and who had made the law that the penalty for sin is death and eternal separation from Him, paid the price HIMSELF so that all one has to do is accept this gift, acknowledging Jesus as one's master. God Himself (Jesus was fully God and fully man too) did everything possible to save mankind from destruction. But again (just check this and related threads) much of mankind are still idiots. They would prefer to do it "there way" instead, since surely they know as much as God. And God will let them make that choice if they want. I suspect there will be a tear or two in God's eye, but He won't force anyone to receive the gift. You want to drown, you have the freedom to do so. Just don't lay the blame at God's feet - in the end, you will look back and know you chose the easy path, followed the world instead of God and now it ends badly.
     
  15. wisdom

    wisdom Legend

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    "Wisdom" it my first name, but "Danger" is my middle name :D

    Seriously, I was going to go with something similar but "imsofreakingsmartwhyareyoureadingthis" was too long. ;)
     
  16. Danny R

    Danny R Goblin the Pug DBSTalk Gold Club

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    I don't see why anyone would put any credibility in Titor. Personally I think he was just a rather creative guy having some fun on the web.

    But lets assume he was telling the truth, one of his strongest predictions certainly hasn't come true:
    It seems obvious to me that if he was telling the truth, then his future avoided a 9/11 type event which shaped our current timeline. Thus no "civil wars" in our country as we concentrated on something else. If something so fundamental to his supposed timeline has already been changed (he stated that our present was already divergent than his past due to changes), then other predictions or explainations can not be counted on at all. His explaination of the "future" is thus as relevant as the next sci-fi novel on the subject.
     
  17. wisdom

    wisdom Legend

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    I pointed Titor out for the parallel diminsions aspect of the Easter story. A similar type of thing would be the show "Sliders".
     
  18. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    One of the biggest problems I have with God and the first sin... is supposedly Adam & Eve weren't supposed to eat from the tree of knowledge just because God said so. Ok, fine... but then why did he give them free will?

    Free will without the capability to understand and without the knowledge upon which to base decisions is useless. So God deliberately gave them free will, but did not give them knowledge. That makes no sense.

    Then he punishes them by banishing them from paradise because they ate from the tree... but it was really his fault for giving them free will without knowledge. With knowledge came the ability to reason and understand, and they then knew why he had told them not to eat.

    It's like he wanted them to fail.
     
  19. Bogy

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    I don't believe that by his actions Judas was left with no other option than hell.
    Simon Peter denied Jesus 3 times, yet he was forgiven by Jesus and made leader of the church.
    From the cross Jesus cries out, "Father, forgive them, they don't know what they are doing." Is this only for the people who actually nailed him to the cross? Those involved in his scourging? The trials? Could it not also have included Judas, who did not realize until too late the results of what he was doing?

    The difference between Peter and Judas? Peter stuck around. He faced up to what he had done and Jesus forgave him. Judas took the cowards way out, and didn't ask for forgiveness.
     
  20. Bogy

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    You can't "give" someone else knowledge, at least not the kind the fruit gave. Knowledge is gained by experience. They were faced with the choice of trusting that the rule God gave them was in their best interests, or to experience good and evil for themselves, thereby gaining the "knowledge of good and evil." They understood evil when they did it, along with guilt and shame. They didn't trust God. They decided there must be something better out there that God must be keeping from them. Like a kid whose mom says, "don't touch the stove." He can take mom's word for it that he shouldn't touch it, but how many kids touch the hot stove anyway? After they experience touching a hot stove, most kids stop. (not all, but most).
     
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