Reports indicate Intel may offer a set top box with a la cart programming.
http://www.businessinsider.com/intel-cable-2013-1
http://www.businessinsider.com/intel-cable-2013-1
There was a time when it WAS free, back again circa 1965, when you had ABC, NBC, and CBS plus a smattering of independent stations. Then things started to erode the economic model of free TV...cable channels started siphoning off viewers and competing for advertising, then DVRs started reducing the value of advertising, and the internet caused cord cutting and people to watch via Hulu, Netflix, etc. Not all market driven changes will benefit the viewer.unixguru said:Then the content should be free. You have said that the content is 40%+ of Premier subscription. And that doesn't make us a customer as well?
I disagree. You can cut back on the number of channels, eliminate the "added value" services like Whole Home DVR, DVRs themselves, and HD content. If there were no market for those services, they wouldn't be offered and we would all still be watching SD on our CRT TVs with RCA DRD480 receivers, and the cost of service would be much lower. But again, the market demanded more, so the MCOs delivered it. It comes at a cost.unixguru said:At a high cost with little free market influence.
Yes you do. If you buy a computer with Windows pre-installed you are paying for the OS even if you immediately wipe the hard drive and install Debian Linux. Your options are to find a vendor that sells computers without an OS (and yes, they do exist) or build a system yourself with components. Again, the free market has spoken and it said that nearly everyone that buys a PC wants Windows on it, so that is what the vendors produce and promote. That's how the market works.unixguru said:Which also means ESPN helps put movies in the theaters. So what? By that logic, if I buy an HP computer I have helped support the production of Windows that you run. (Which I pay for even if I don't use Windows on it.)
Yes, America leads the world in computer software...my employer being one such firm. We are a relatively small company (around 100 employees) yet we compete against the giants of the industry. We compete through innovation and agility that the big firms can't match. There is PLENTY of competition in the software industry, just as there is in the entertainment industry.unixguru said:Replace entertainment with "software" and your statement holds as well. Still does nothing to justify anticompetitive business practices.
Sorry, won't ever agree with that. There is far too much hangup on specific words ignoring the underlying meaning and effect.Diana C said:And no, you are not a customer of the broadcasters, you are a customer of the distributor (i.e. DirecTV, Dish, Comcast, etc.), and you are not paying for the content, you are paying for ACCESS to the content, whether you actually watch it or not.
Then we must agree to disagree. Sure, the consumer is the ultimate customer in everything, but the influence the consumer has diminishes as a function of distance from the firm in question. While what Broadcom makes is driven by the needs of (say) Pace Electronics, which are driven by the needs of DirecTV, which are driven by the needs of it's software programers, which are driven by the needs of the consumer, how much direct influence do you have over the business practices (which is what we are discussing here) of Broadcom? Can you reasonably insist that they sell lots of 20 chips for the same price per chip as lots of 20,000? Yet that is what you are trying to assert here - that as a customer of DirecTV you should be able to demand that their suppliers make it possible for you to buy TV content at a finer grain than it is currently offered.unixguru said:
Sorry, won't ever agree with that. There is far too much hangup on specific words ignoring the underlying meaning and effect.
Take a premium channel. I buy or not buy depending on what the premium channel itself provides. The fact that I send the money to DirecTV and they pass it on is irrelevant. I am a "customer" of that channel.
My local phone company would like to sell me a complete bundle of phone, internet, and DirecTV. I would pay them and it would pass through to DirecTV. Your concept means I'm not a customer of DirecTV in that case.
When I buy anything I apply my vote to the company I'm buying from and that, in turn, applies to every company they buy from. When Broadcom makes a new chip they are directly responding to the requirements of any company that will buy it - which, in turn, is driven by requirements of the consumer that ultimately buys the end product. EVERY industry is like that.
This is the way it is because the Windows tax is relatively low and within reason for the vast majority of people.Diana C said:Yes you do. If you buy a computer with Windows pre-installed you are paying for the OS even if you immediately wipe the hard drive and install Debian Linux. Your options are to find a vendor that sells computers without an OS (and yes, they do exist) or build a system yourself with components. Again, the free market has spoken and it said that nearly everyone that buys a PC wants Windows on it, so that is what the vendors produce and promote. That's how the market works.
Can you buy a Macbook Air without the Apple OS on it? Yet I can run Windows on it if I choose. So is that a OSX tax?unixguru said:This is the way it is because the Windows tax is relatively low and within reason for the vast majority of people.
When a $350 notebook with Windows starts costing $450 because Microsoft cranked up the price you can bet the market will change fast and there will be no more bundling. Microsoft knows this and balances that risk (tradeoff less per-unit for more units).
TV is also a balancing act. Like the computer example it hasn't gone too far for most people - yet.
You could compare the number of cord cutters to those that won't buy a computer with a Windows tax. Microsoft is hurting. PC makers are hurting. And then there is Apple. No reason to believe that a similar disruption won't happen to the TV industry.
I've never said I expected smaller lots to be at the same price as larger. I didn't intend to tie Broadcom into this primarily relative to DirecTV.Diana C said:Then we must agree to disagree. Sure, the consumer is the ultimate customer in everything, but the influence the consumer has diminishes as a function of distance from the firm in question. While what Broadcom makes is driven by the needs of (say) Pace Electronics, which are driven by the needs of DirecTV, which are driven by the needs of it's software programers, which are driven by the needs of the consumer, how much direct influence do you have over the business practices (which is what we are discussing here) of Broadcom? Can you reasonably insist that they sell lots of 20 chips for the same price per chip as lots of 20,000? Yet that is what you are trying to assert here - that as a customer of DirecTV you should be able to demand that their suppliers make it possible for you to buy TV content at a finer grain than it is currently offered.
In fact, you are not even saying that a given supplier must unbundle their offerings, but rather that you should be able to choose which supplier you get content from. That would be like telling DirecTV you want to only buy HD DVRs with components from Broadcom or Samsung and not from Sharp or Intel. Good luck with that.
Yes, it is. Can't imagine why anyone would buy an Apple if they weren't going to run OSX at all.Diana C said:Can you buy a Macbook Air without the Apple OS on it? Yet I can run Windows on it if I choose. So is that a OSX tax?
Actually, didn't pay as you go come more from the phone companies wanting to sell to people who were credit risks or at least short of cash?Diana C;3183480 said:Can you buy a Macbook Air without the Apple OS on it? Yet I can run Windows on it if I choose. So is that a OSX tax?
But you are right. If prices exceed what people are willing to pay things will change. That is how pay-as-you-go cell phone plans came to exist.
But pay-as-you-go happened without goverment intervention and new laws. It happened because the market wanted it. If the market wants an alternative to the current TV model they will get it.
The point is that the market drove it. The market for people willing or able to pay for 400 minutes monthly, whether they used that much or not, was saturated. Whether it was because of credit risk, cash shortages, whatever, the MARKET developed a solution.tonyd79 said:Actually, didn't pay as you go come more from the phone companies wanting to sell to people who were credit risks or at least short of cash?
At this point, I think we are arguing semantics. Let me try to summarize the two positions...unixguru said:I've never said I expected smaller lots to be at the same price as larger. I didn't intend to tie Broadcom into this primarily relative to DirecTV.
Broadcom also makes cell phone chips and competes with Qualcomm. They both sell to multiple phone manufacturers. If one or the other gets ahead in features that, in turn, makes phones based on it ahead of features, which in turn drives more consumers to that. So how in the world does that not affect the chip supplier?
Intel vs AMD.
Again, if it were like TV, I would buy an Intel computer from a manufacturer and part of that money would go to AMD because the manufacturer also sells AMD computers.
I agree. With cord cutting happening at a very slow rate and pay TV subscribers on the rise...we are nowhere near that point. If and when that happens, as you said, the market will develop a solution. It won't be forced in the market like the failed theory of nirvana that some see in a la carte.Diana C;3183499 said:The point is that the market drove it. The market for people willing or able to pay for 400 minutes monthly, whether they used that much or not, was saturated. Whether it was because of credit risk, cash shortages, whatever, the MARKET developed a solution.
If and when the number of cord cutters, or young people unwilling or unable to pay for bundled video services, reaches critical mass (and I don't pretend to know what that number is) the market will produce a new solution, as it did for cell phones.
I can show you study after study that shows people with DVR still watch plenty of live tv, not just sports. In our house, we have three DVRs including the Genie. We watch some recorded content, we watch a ton of live sports, and we also just surf and watch what's on.unixguru said:With a DVR it doesn't matter what time you watch. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=3067523#post3067523
Our household, like many others, rarely watches anything live.
Further fodder. Here is a hypothetical mind experiment.unixguru said:Intel vs AMD.
Again, if it were like TV, I would buy an Intel computer from a manufacturer and part of that money would go to AMD because the manufacturer also sells AMD computers.
I'm sorry, I don't buy this analogy at all.unixguru said:Further fodder. Here is a hypothetical mind experiment.
*) I run a computer manufacturing company
*) I sell Intel-based computers because they have the majority of the market due to customer demand
*) I also sell AMD-based computers because a minority of customers want for numerical/supercomputer applications
*) Intel is a bully and demands a fee for every computer I sell no matter what processor; no fee, no ACCESS to any Intel part
*) Intel also demands I must sell product with every series of Intel CPU
*) One way or another AMD buyers are paying for this extra access fee even though they never use an Intel part
*) Intel buyers don't care that AMD buyers have to support their purchase
*) AMD buyers have no choice; every computer manufacturer has the same deal with Intel
*) As a consumer I have very few options to not pay the Intel tax and those options will be poor due to cost (materials [lack of similar volume - SPARC, for example] or time) or lack of features (if I need certain applications that only work on x86 for example)
Intel in this fantasy world is similar to ESPN (parent company).
Can this happen? Is it legal?
It's easy to defend this kind of situation when you benefit from the model. Does majority rule - in everything? After all, the market got to this place. Of course not. Many laws protect the minority. If you aren't one in any way now you no doubt will be somewhere along the line.
As I've watched more streaming that includes commercials that I can't skip I've gotten to thinking about that trade-off. Would I be willing to again watch programming with commercials if there was no other cost to view (I am assuming that my internet access is a sunk cost because it is used for other purposes as well)? My current answer is "not yet", primarily due to the bandwidth I have available (DSL) and the quality of streamed content. But change those 2 variables and I think I could live with commercials for $100+ a month.Diana C said:There was a time when it WAS free, back again circa 1965, when you had ABC, NBC, and CBS plus a smattering of independent stations.
One of the things about this debate that is interesting is the idea that a la carte is about channels. Channels are a nearly century-old concept that came about because of physical realities/limitations of analog broadcast. Today, even broadcast channels are convenient relics in the form of virtual collections of digital content. This is where streamed content becomes a mechanism for offering a la carte. There is no reason someone couldn't self create a personal channel given content availability.Diana C said:There was a time when it WAS free, back again circa 1965, when you had ABC, NBC, and CBS plus a smattering of independent stations. Then things started to erode the economic model of free TV...cable channels started siphoning off viewers and competing for advertising, then DVRs started reducing the value of advertising, and the internet caused cord cutting and people to watch via Hulu, Netflix, etc. Not all market driven changes will benefit the viewer.
Part of the challenge is understanding that AMC is only $0.29 because millions of people subscribe to it. Fox Soccer is only $0.20 because millions of people subscribe to it. Take away the millions of subscribers and the money the channels get goes away.wmb said:Part of what I don't get is why someone somewhere couldn't figure out that instead of offering me $0.29 per month AMC that I don't watch because of the commercials, they could save $0.09 and let me have $0.20 per month Fox Soccer instead. Advertisers would be happier, they would get actual impressions, I would be happier, I could save $6 and get a lower package.
James Long said:Part of the challenge is understanding that AMC is only $0.29 because millions of people subscribe to it. Fox Soccer is only $0.20 because millions of people subscribe to it. Take away the millions of subscribers and the money the channels get goes away.
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I understand that this is the party line. I also understand that there is a pile of money waiting for someone to find a different way of taking it.
The current model is the way things will be until it isn't.
I'd just rather see that pile of money get us MORE content by working together instead of less content for more money ... which is the eventual result of a la carte.wmb said:I understand that this is the party line. I also understand that there is a pile of money waiting for someone to find a different way of taking it.
The current model is the way things will be until it isn't.
It isn't the party line. It's the simple reality of the situation.wmb said:I understand that this is the party line. I also understand that there is a pile of money waiting for someone to find a different way of taking it.
The current model is the way things will be until it isn't.
Hey! Those ectomorphic discombobulators don't come cheap!unixguru said:This was funny... last night we watched Continuum on SyFy (slightly time-shifted ). Saw a reference to liber8.com. :lol:
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2010/07/31/where-does-syfy-get-the-money-for-all-its-show-projects/58728/:
Over $500 million revenue for SyFy
That article says in 2010 the highest rated show was... Ghost Hunters :eek2:
Boy, that one costs a fortune to make.
We love science fiction but the garbage they make is rarely watchable. Somebody is making truckloads of money.
IF those numbers are right (big IF), $240 million divided by 96 million divided by 12 months is about 21 cents per subscriber. IF the numbers are correct.unixguru said:This was funny... last night we watched Continuum on SyFy (slightly time-shifted ). Saw a reference to liber8.com. :lol:
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2010/07/31/where-does-syfy-get-the-money-for-all-its-show-projects/58728/:
Over $500 million revenue for SyFy
That article says in 2010 the highest rated show was... Ghost Hunters :eek2:
Boy, that one costs a fortune to make.
We love science fiction but the garbage they make is rarely watchable. Somebody is making truckloads of money.
All true...but the term "channel" now means a set of content made available by a distributor through a given access point. Hence, the IPTV sources on Roku are called "channels" even though they are non-linear, non-broadcast sources of content.wmb said:One of the things about this debate that is interesting is the idea that a la carte is about channels. Channels are a nearly century-old concept that came about because of physical realities/limitations of analog broadcast. Today, even broadcast channels are convenient relics in the form of virtual collections of digital content. This is where streamed content becomes a mechanism for offering a la carte. There is no reason someone couldn't self create a personal channel given content availability...