Interactive Beam Footprint Library

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Tips and Resources' started by Gary Toma, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. Gary Toma

    Gary Toma UNIX

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    Slice,

    There is no zip data in the guide, unfortunately. The addition of ZIPs to our OTA listing was my feeble attempt to provide some help for the folks trying to use that database. The ZIP data presented is from an outside source, Nielsen, which offers these "Primary ZIPs" for each DMA. I am not aware of their criteria for these "Primary ZIPs".

    At the time I reviewed this, it seemed our only other choice would be to provide a ZIP for each and every station in the list. That would be a mass of data, with dubious value, I'm afraid.
     
  2. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    OK thanks. If there is no zip data in the guide, I'm guessing that the zip to OTA mapping is delivered in a separate data stream that you guys aren't using to construct your information. When you give a receiver (H20/HR20 or attached to an AM21) a ZIP it accesses that data stream until it finds the ZIP you input, which provides it the list of channels it thinks it should find.
     
  3. tomspeer46

    tomspeer46 Legend

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    I don't own an AM-21, but it would be interesting to know what OTA channels would appear in my guide for zip 12847, since there are no OTA signals available.
     
  4. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    From what I've read about how the weekly spreadsheet is created, someone has a PC with a DVB-S/DSS card that can tune transponders on 101. I assume it is known what transponder the guide data comes in on, so you're able to download that data to a file once a week and plug it into your scripts that help produce the output of the spreadsheet, etc. This zip -> OTA channel list stream should exist somewhere else on 101.

    I don't know how easy it is to 'look around' on various transponders and search for data streams and try to decode them. I assume there's some sort of a 'master' stream that tells where the other streams can be found so you might know where to look - i.e. whatever it is that the receiver downloads when it first starts up.

    Of course this might turn out to be a bit of a wild goose chase to find something when we don't even know for sure what it will look like. I'd look myself if I could, but unfortunately I don't have any way to hit 101 through the trees at home even if I bought a DVB-S card! Though if you find a bunch of streams, save them to files, and want someone to help dig through the data and see what's what I'll volunteer to give it a look...I'm pretty good at that sort of thing.
     
  5. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    I notice on James' website he located and actually posts the transport stream data of the OTA guide information for Dish.

    Guide info. uses the same spotbeam xpndrs the LiLs are on. But don't know if dr. j, P. Smith, or others here can do the same for DIRECTV's system and method for sending the info.

    Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk
     
  6. cpalmer2k

    cpalmer2k New Member

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    Thanks to all for the hard work on the new D11 maps. As for the zip code issue I've noticed the variations in what channels are offered before. The best method I've found for figuring out what channels will show up for a particular zip code is to key that zip code in on zap2it. Their lineups seem to mirror the channels available in a particular zip code. I have noticed that DirecTV tends to stick closer to DMA rules with what they included in each zip code. For example, I'm assigned to one DMA, but actually LIVE closer to another neighboring DMA's towers. If I use my actual zip code I still get none of the neighboring channels on the AM21N, yet they all show as my top stations on TVFool and on zap2it's lineup. So it isn't absolute. To get them I still have to use a secondary zip code from that DMA.

    One thing I would LOVE to see added, though it might be a lot of work would be a chart (similar to the Network Decoder chart on the last page of the spreadsheet) for 99(s) and 103(s) that lists exactly which markets are covered on each transponder. Yes, I realize the spreadsheet lists this information but a nice chart that simply lists 99(s) transponder 1 carrying these markets, transponder 2 carries these markets, etc would be a great addition. It shouldn't require a great deal of revision once it is created, as those rarely move around.
     
  7. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    I'm not aware of such streaming .... URL?
     
  8. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    If you could develop a macro for Excel, I think it would be possible.
     
  9. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    The "OTA Program Guide Data" listings for Dish's local markets here;

    http://uplink.jameslong.name/locallist.html

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  10. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    Looks the same as for DTV, no ZIP ... can you explain in details what is missing ?
     
  11. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    But can you even see the OTA guide info. data stream for DIRECTV like those Dish listings is the point I was making?

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  12. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    If you mean EPG for OTA channels, it would need additional research ... if not, I don't see on referenced page more info what Gary publishing ...
     
  13. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Ok, but I didn't mean to imply that the listings of OTA guide data info. posted on James' site was broken down by intra-DMA zip code. But merely to point out that apparently he can capture the OTA data to begin with.

    Whereas I see no evidence that DIRECTV's has or can be captured as of yet. If it can then perhaps if analyzed such zip code distinctions may be found which for all I know, Dish may not even have these ZC variations.

    Slice has volunteered his time and effort in this endeavor to help pour over such data captures if possible.

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  14. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    That would be the big question. DISH has decided to link OTA to EPG using channels in the guide. The main channel on each OTA channel is linked to DISH's via satellite feed of the channel. Additional subchannels of OTA channels are linked to high numbered virtual channels (channels that do not exist other than in tables). DISH does not use zip codes to match channels to EPG. DISH uses the transport stream ID transmitted by the local station. The transport stream ID (TSID) is how DISH knows what channel is being received regardless of display channel or RF carrier frequency.

    It would be interesting to see how DIRECTV does their OTA EPG and matching channels to guide content.
     
  15. tomspeer46

    tomspeer46 Legend

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    The chart would be WAY more complex than the Network Decoder chart. You can get what you are asking for from Gary's LIL tab on theTPN map. Click on the upper right corner, at the junction of the row labels and column labels, to select the whole sheet. Then at the top Click on the Data tab, then SORT select "My data has headers'" then sort on NETWORK,TPN,TID, & LIL_MARKET. Then click on "Remove duplicates" at the top, unselect all, then check the same four fields. If you delete all the lines that are not in Network 11 or 14, you will have a list of all markets on each transponder, on 99s and 103s. Note that there are maybe on the order of 20 DMA's on each TPN number, 1 to 3 DMAs on each TID, more if there are virtual channels in neighboring DMAs.
     
  16. Apr 5, 2016 #176 of 194
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Directv has finally applied for a license to uplink reverse band from LABC. They've had it at CRBC for some time, but this indicates they are moving closer to actually using it as they'll have geographic diversity via a new 13.2 meter dish in LABC. I don't count NWUF as diversity as that was probably used for RB-1A and RB-2A testing, and not intended for CONUS uplinks since that's only a remotely operated uplink facility. See http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/attachment_menu.hts?id_app_num=108741&acct=108052&id_form_num=13&filing_key=-283916

    In Sept. 2014 I dug through their Earth station applications to produce a list of what sites could uplink where and produced the below list. I checked to see if anything else had changed, and SWUF added a Ku antenna able to uplink to Directv's Ku satellite fleet which has also been added to the list.

    Pretty sure the site in Brooklyn is defunct, and having three sites in the LA area doesn't make much sense so they will probably get rid of one of them if they haven't already. I would look for CRDUF and LADUF (assuming they keep it and dump Canoga Park) to add reverse band, so they have full site diversity to add to the geographic diversity they now possess. Likewise Littleton is probably gone or on the way out. I'm assuming the missing 119 for LADUF was a clerical error in the application as it seems odd to uplink to only two of their three Ku satellite locations and leave one out.
    Code:
    NAME          LOCATION             Ku uplink     Ka uplink     RDBS uplink
    
    n/a           Brooklyn, NY         101
    CANOGA PARK   Los Angeles, CA                    99/101/103[*]
    CRBC          Castle Rock, CO      101/110/119   99/101/103    99/103
    CRDUF         Englewood, CO        101/110/119   99/101/103
    ECUF          Winchester, VA       101/110/119
    LABC          Los Angeles, CA      101/110/119   99/101/103    99/103
    LADUF         Long Beach, CA       101/110       99/101/103
    LITTLETON     Littleton, CO                      99/101/103
    MWDF          Big Lake, MN                       99/101/103
    MWUF          Oakdale, MN          101/110/119   99/101/103
    NEDF          Littleton, NH                      99/101/103
    NEUF          New Hampton, NH                    99/101/103
    NWDF          Ellensburg, WA                     99/101/103
    NWUF          Moxee, WA                          99/101/103    99/103
    SWDF          Benson, AZ                         99/101/103
    SWUF          Tucson, AZ           101/110/119   99/101/103
    
    [*] Ka hi only
    
     
  17. Apr 5, 2016 #177 of 194
    HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    Thanks, good find and license summary;

    However, as I posted previously you may want to consider that DIRECTV might be changing it's diversity site for the LABC to the new Bakersfield facility they're constructing there.

    Remember the construction plan documents I found online for the Bakersfield facility not too long ago titled it many times as the "LA Diverse Facility" (or LADF) And the first dish being built there, "LADKA1," is the same General Dynamics 13.2m dish model with both Ka and Reverse Band capability. The "D" in there for "Diversity" perhaps?

    Interstingly enough, I remember VOS, thinking I was wrong at the time, once objected to a post I made claiming the CBC was the Ka diversity facility for the LABC since it's location in nearby Long Beach was really too close for good uplink diversity.

    This may have been the precise reason why it was moved up to Bakersfield.

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  18. Apr 5, 2016 #178 of 194
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I remember you posting that now. If it comes online in time they may never need to add reverse band capability to the current LADUF, only to CRDUF. I wonder what the distance requirement is for diversity, and whether it is intended only for weather or for other factors? And if the CRBC and CRDUF are far enough apart or if that might eventually be replaced as well?
     
  19. Apr 5, 2016 #179 of 194
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I had another thought about this. They may not consider it necessary to have reverse band uplink capability in both LA sites and both Colorado sites since that's used for CONUS only. The way I see it, the uplink site / diversity site distinction is used for uplinking spot beams, since that's the only diversity provided. They can't switch over to LABC to uplink spot beams that CRBC is supposed to uplink if there's very heavy rain fading their uplink, because LABC already has spot beams it is uplinking on the same frequencies.

    The diversity for CONUS is provided by the two main broadcast centers, so if normally LABC and CRBC are splitting the CONUS uplink load to some extent, and CRBC has problems, rather than moving that load to CRDUF they'd move it to LABC. I doubt CRDUF and LADUF (or the new one being built in Bakersfield) have all the infrastructure and staffing necessary for handling CONUS so that's probably LABC and CRBC only.

    I'd imagine they switch programming over before a big storm arrives, rather than waiting until their uplink is actually faded (unless they have the ability to cut over almost instantly) The diversity between these sites is probably intended for longer term outages, like if something breaks or they need to do scheduled maintenance, or if a huge blizzard crippled Colorado and CRBC staff couldn't get to work, that sort of thing.
     
  20. Apr 5, 2016 #180 of 194
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    How much interference will the DBS uplink sites cause to customers near the unlink attempting to receive RDBS? Including DIRECTV itself attempting to monitor the return RDBS signal at the uplink site?

    Perhaps customer RDBS reception would not be overwhelmed by the DBS uplink ... but would a co-located uplink have trouble monitoring their own signals? Or would they have separate receive sites for monitoring RDBS?
     

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