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Discussion in 'The OT' started by cj9788, Dec 14, 2012.
President Obama is giving a speech/news conference on this issue right now.
So if these guns were used on a night other than Saturday, that doesn't count, either?
"Saturday night special" was a shorthand term. The guns covered under the law is another thing. I remember that debate. The idea was to outlaw guns commonly used in crimes, not just ones that were cheap and easily concealed.
Even if the term was broadly defined, that law hasn't impacted the legality of any other type of gun - other handguns, shotguns or rifles. "Carl, while the anti gunners say they are not against the 2nd Amendment, hunting, and sport shooting their true goal is to ban the sale and ownership of firearms." That is what you said. Anti-gunners are going after all our guns. That simply is not the case and is the justification for the slippery slope argument.
Perhaps if you read "The American Rifleman" you'd think differently. Like I posted earlier, I bow to the fact more gun laws will be passed in wake of this tragedy. They will have little effect in preventing more crimes involving guns. In the meantime the heart of the problem, America's addiction to violence, criminal control, and addressing mental health issues will get a honorable mention at best.
I'm afraid you're right on all points.
This is news to me, would you please provide a reference to support this statement? I've done multiple searches for it and find no reference to it and as an NRA member for ~25 years I believe I would have heard about it directly after the OKC bombing.
America's addiction to violence, lack of mental health services, and "criminal control" are all issues. Although when one references "criminal control," can anyone be more specific as to what should be done? I really would like to hear everyone's opinion. The criminal justice system is largely governed by the US constitution, and is very hard to change. But I am interested in opinions.
I wonder where the people are who say this kid should have the right to a gun and a right to bring it to school. Those who came out of the woodwork to say if people in the school had their own guns, that they think it would have been good... do they want the kids going to school with guns?
Before anyone replies... no trap here... just pointing out what should be the obvious... The "right to bear arms" clearly is not meant for everyone or at all times... we just need to agree on when and for whom it applies, and that is what nobody really wants to seriously discuss.
And there is this link concerning the CDC tracking gun shot wounds:
Common sense dictates no child should be allowed to handle a firearm of any type without adult supervision. As for the theory it would have been good had people had their own guns at the school in Newton, Connecticut the answer is no. Security is best left for well trained professionals. And I don't mean law enforcement agencies. Need I remind everyone of the innocent bystanders shot by the police at the Empire State Building shooting or the FBI fiascos at Ruby Ridge and Waco?
Many of our rights are age limited ... for example the right to vote. The 26th amendment protects voting rights down to age 18. Although it is up to the states to set their minimum age no state has gone below 18. Constitutionally, a 6 year old could vote ... but no state allows that.
Technically speaking, it is possible to vote at 17 in a primary, at least in some states (like Ohio), though not all 17 year olds would qualify. Why all states don't allow this is beyond me.
I qualified, but no one ever mentioned it, I'd always been told you had to be 18, so I missed out on my first possible election.
Criminal behavior is itself simply a mental health issue. The best practices for mental health are no different than physical:
#1 - Best possible preventative care
#2 - Earliest possible detection and diagnosis
#3 - Most advanced treatments
If your desire is to have less to deal with, then channel resources to those three things. If your desire is to manage them better after the fact, then just build more hospitals, or asylums, or prisons whichever fits.
In the country that invented the Big Mac and the Twinkie, "best possible preventative care" for any kind of health is still a bit of a dream.
Regarding mental health, our "earliest possible detection and diagnosis" efforts seem to have become focused on modifying the behavior of uncooperative children through the generous offering of drugs purchased from our friendly neighborhood international pharmaceutical industry.
Regarding our "most advanced treatments", even for our military vets we mostly seem to offer our best shopping carts and cardboard boxes.
Good luck trying to fund a realistic and expensive version of those three critical elements through the taxpayers when they might end up having to buy only every other release of the iPhone.
To say criminal behavior is a mental health issue isn't entirely true, for it's a social issue as well. Consider street crimes and shoplifting. More often than not, they're more a matter of fufilling a person's wants (e.g. money or merchandise) These people aren't necessarily mentally unbalanced.
Bad things will always happen for the past 5000+ years and Education is the only thing that will slow it up. But you cant stop all of it. No such thing as a utopian society. People will dream of it but it will never happen
Yeah... I can't go that far either. Truly, criminal behavior is only criminal because of laws. Sometimes a lot of people disagree with the law, and if that law was overturned, suddenly those people are no longer criminals.
There are definitely crimes that can occur as a result of a mental health issue within an individual... but it is by no means required to commit a criminal act.
Uncontrollable greed is not a mental illness?
Stewart is right when he says "criminal behavior is only criminal because of laws". One could list a lot of behaviors that have been codified as illegal. Jaywalking, walking on the grass and spitting on the sidewalk are illegal. So what do we do in our mental health system to make people compliant? Zone people out so much with medication and treatments that they never break a law?
We are a nation of rebels. It is part of what makes us strong. We have flaws but they too can make us strong when we overcome them in a civil way.
We are also a nation of freedom ... and while I am not nor would I ever support a "freedom to kill dozens of people" (and suffer the consequences of law, if one survives) the freedom to not have your life micromanaged by the government is one most people want. Those pushing for more government control and intervention usually intend to control OTHER PEOPLE. But to be fair, if one starts a required mental health program to keep everybody "happy" the zombie apocalypse will be real ... except instead of flesh eating zombies roaming the streets we will all be mind controlled zombies.
Mental health care for those who need and desire the services is good. But we need to make sure that we as a society can agree what is mentally ill. I will not mention any of the controversial practices that some laud and others may consider an illness ... but imagine if left handedness were considered a mental illness and we treated people with left handedness as mentally ill ... starting with drug therapy and moving on to putting them in lockup until their left handedness is cured.
How much of your freedom do you want to give up? Or are these rules only for "other people"?
Nowhere did I mention "uncontrollable Greed". People commit criminal acts all the time. To stretch things a bit, have you ever exceeded the speed limit or run a red light when driving? Have you ever jaywalked? In the strictest sense of the word, those actions are crimes in that they are violations of the law. They are neither felonies nor misdemeanors. Rather, they are "infractions".
You didn't, I did. I want what you have is greed ... perhaps that can be converted in some way to encourage me to get what you have through legal means (work harder, get a better job). But when the greed gets to the point where it cannot be controlled and one commits a criminal act I call that "uncontrollable greed". Not being able to control the impulse could be a mental illness.
Yes, they are all criminal activities. Can the impulse to commit crimes be removed via mental health programs?