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Mass shooting @ Connecticut elementary school. 20 children killed.

Discussion in 'The OT' started by cj9788, Dec 14, 2012.

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  1. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    That kid in the link was 11 years old. When I was 11, we all had rifles, bolt action rifles. We taught ourselves and no one ever got hurt. I owned rifles from that time till I got out of the Navy. I did buy one rifle, but I got bored by it. Going from big rifles to the small rifles seemed like a big step down. Haven't owned one since.

    I can understand the lust that fills some people when they handle a well made gun, but I really still think semi-automatic pistols and rifles should be in the hands of law officers and veterans trained in their use. I've really never even enjoyed semi-auto rifles or pistols. I've also shot full automatic rifles and, in the hands of novices, they just empty a clip too fast to even be accurate.

    Rich
     
  2. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Yeah, I understood that when I posted. If I was gonna do something like that I'd take out the armed person first.

    Rich
     
  3. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    Add on that there are many rural, remote, not readily accessible schools with only a handful of students. These schools will need officers as well, and will be more expensive to guard than other, larger, urban schools because officers will have to be paid extra to drive the long distances or to move to these remote locations. Plus we need several officers assigned to each school to cover different days and shifts, including after-school and evening and weekend activities, as well as when an officer becomes sick or injured. So every school will need multiple, dedicated officers. The money required to do this is huge. It would have to be paid for at the federal level, or schools will have to seek additional, dedicated taxes to cover this huge undertaking. Private schools will have to work deals with the police agency in their area to secure the officers at the private schools. This will probably entail substantial tuition increases.
     
  4. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    Did Mr. LaPierre have written details as to exactly what this will cost? Did he offer NRA financial resources to finance this undertaking?

    If not, then what "meaningful contribution" has he made to ensuring that this incident will never recur?
     
  5. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

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    What good are books and teachers to dead students?

    I think we have already established that as a society we are not capable of correcting this problem pro-actively. Our only choices are to address it reactively or not at all. As a reactive measure, i think this one makes sense. If your not comfortable with the dollar amounts, then we just need to put a baseline in place for the value of the average school students life and then we can crunch some numbers and see what we can do. Maybe we only save half of them, but within an acceptable budget...
     
  6. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    I hope Mr. LaPierre included officers on the bus, since shootings have taken place on buses as well as well as school yards.
     
  7. RasputinAXP

    RasputinAXP Kwisatz Haderach of Cordcuttery

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    If the 2nd amendment grants the right to bear arms for the purposes of a well-regulated militia, then why don't folks join the National Guard, qualify on the weapons and store them properly?
     
  8. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    What good is school without up to date books and teachers?

    I believe we have already made that tough decision in this country. Schools that have had problems have arranged for police officers work with the schools. Schools that have a history of problems have added metal detectors and other appropriate security.

    If you can guarantee that by paying the full $$billion dollars than not one more life would be lost in a school shooting then perhaps your dollars per student life argument would hold water. But you can't. Politicians living in fear that if they don't do enough they will be blamed for the next event is what got us security theater at the airports and other intrusive laws.

    But you cannot guarantee that even with full spending there will not be one more child killed at school. Snipers in the woods shooting kids outside a school is not stopped by having a police officer somewhere around - and the smaller shootings where a couple of people are shot would probably end up with one more person dead - if the officer needed to shoot the shooter before they gave up their gun.

    There are no guarantees ... and that is what makes it theater.
     
  9. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    http://boston.com/metrodesk/2012/12...un-thursday/MfscFkm9wAqarQNGelePKN/story.html
     
  10. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    And let's not forget churches considering Pennsylvania this morning.
     
  11. MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    That's now how it's worded. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". It clearly says "the right of the people" to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The framers of the Constitution repeatedly use the word people, not select groups when describing our rights.
     
  12. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It could be read as if the first part was the reason for the second part. At the time, the way to have a well regulated militia was to have people bring their own gun to the fight. We have moved on to other methods - including hiring military and police officers and having the government be responsible for providing their arms.

    So without the "militia" as a reason, why else would the constitution suggest people should bear arms? "For hunting purposes" does not seem to be covered even though people hunting to feed their families would have been more prevalent. "For entertainment purposes" does not seem to enter in at all. Did people in the 1700's waste ammo "just for fun" or was every shot not for hunting or war training for a regular needed use?

    BTW: I try not to get too caught up with "people" meaning everyone when I realize that people did not always cover women and blacks. :) We have made "people" cover more people over the years.
     
  13. BattleScott

    BattleScott Hall Of Fame

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    I think the discussion at hand is how do we best protect against future shootings like Newtown in the future, not education reform. New books and more teachers would only provide more and better educated targets.

    As for the money, you are the one who is requiring 100% effectiveness in order to justify the expenditure of $x. That puts the burden on you to define the value per life.

    To me, I see enough validity in the statement that had there been a police officer on duty in that school in Newtown, that the results very likely would have been improved. I make absolutely no assertions that it is a guarantee against any and all future events, that is your unrealistic requirement.

    Given the present waste being generated at every level of government in this country, I would have no problem with 2 or 3 times the amount that Phrelin esitmates it would take to offer that protection.
     
  14. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/21/justice/pennsylvania-violence/index.html

    Unfortunate ... and not exactly a "church shooting" (the dead include a person shot through a window, a person who confronted the shooter, a person the shooter hit in a traffic accident after the shooting and the shooter killed by officers). I suppose if the second person had a gun the death toll would have been two ... or three. But this is one of those situations where someone innocent is going to die regardless of how many guns are available.

    It highlights how difficult the solution to the problem is ... and reminds me that it is far out of the scope of what we handle here at DBSTalk. Perhaps if someone has all the answers it is time to go to your elected officials and get something done. I don't see how further posturing and discussion here is making a difference.

    Victims in Newton:
    Charlotte Bacon, Daniel Barden, Olivia Engel, Josephine Gay, Ana M. Marquez-Greene, Dylan Hockley, Madeleine F. Hsu, Catherine V. Hubbard, Chase Kowalski, Jesse Lewis, James Mattioli, Grace McDonnell, Emilie Parker, Jack Pinto, Noah Pozner, Caroline Previdi, Jessica Rekos, Avielle Richman, Benjamin Wheeler and Allison N. Wyatt. Rachel DaVino, Dawn Hochsprung, Anne Marie Murphy, Lauren Russeau, Mary Sherlach, Victoria Soto and Nancy Lanza.
     
  15. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    We may get a few more cases clarifying the 2nd Amendment from the Supreme Court. And the opinions of anyone but the nine justices (actually five of them) don't really matter. Those five justices will decide what it means. A case on concealed carry out of Illinois may get to the Supreme Court soon. Over the years the changing composition of the Court as well as additional, clarifying cases will let us know the parameters of the 2nd Amendment. So people on DBSTalk, or at the NRA, or anywhere else can tell us what the 2nd Amendment means, but they are really just telling us what they would like it to mean.
     
  16. SayWhat?

    SayWhat? Know Nothing

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    Another one? The old fuddie duddies just struck one down last week, once again proving they have no interest in peaceful citizens.
     
  17. runner861

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    I don't think that you are referring to the Supreme Court. The case you are talking about is the one from the 7th Circuit and may be reviewed by the Supreme Court. Or maybe not, it is discretionary.
     
  18. Carl Spock

    Carl Spock Superfly

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    I've been meaning to do this all day. Thank you, DBSTalk, for putting this special banner up on the site:

    Our thoughts today are with the families of the children and teachers who lost their lives one week ago at Sandy Hook Elementary school, and with the community of Newtown, Connecticut. ~DBSTalk

    It is the only thing that really matters.
     
  19. chick3112215

    chick3112215 AllStar

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    scariest thing in the world, white suburban kid with a mental disorder and a gun.. so tragic :(

    if only we could profile these whackos and preemptively lock them up in institutions.
     
  20. Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

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    Lock people up for having mental issues? Before they commit a crime? Just because they fit the profile of someone else who did commit a crime? I have issues with that. Locking up people with mental issues is not a solution. Getting them treatment is.
     
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