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Mass shooting @ Connecticut elementary school. 20 children killed.

Discussion in 'The OT' started by cj9788, Dec 14, 2012.

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  1. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

    Jan 4, 2006
  2. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    Apr 17, 2003
    State Police Release Names of Deceased in Newtown School Shooting

    Charlotte Bacon 02/22/06
    Daniel Barden 09/25/05
    Rachel DaVino 07/17/83
    Olivia Engel 07/18/06
    Josephine Gay 12/11/05
    Ana M. Marquez-Greene 04/04/06
    Dylan Hockley 03/08/06
    Dawn Hochsprung 06/28/65
    Madeleine F. Hsu 07/10/06
    Catherine V. Hubbard 06/08/06
    Chase Kowalski 10/31/05
    Jesse Lewis 06/30/06
    James Mattioli 03/22/06
    Grace McDonnell 11/04/05
    Anne Marie Murphy 07/25/60
    Emilie Parker 05/12/06
    Jack Pinto 05/06/06
    Noah Pozner 11/20/06
    Caroline Previdi 09/07/06
    Jessica Rekos 05/10/06
    Avielle Richman 10/17/06
    Lauren Russeau 06/82
    Mary Sherlach 02/11/56
    Victoria Soto 01/04/85
    Benjamin Wheeler 09/12/06
    Allison N. Wyatt 07/03/06

  3. phrelin

    phrelin Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

    Jan 18, 2007

    California has a number of school police departments as can be seen above. A good example is the Santa Ana School Police Department. As noted in their web site it is the 3rd largest school police agency in the State of California, while at the same time serving the 6th largest school district in the State. Here is the summary:
    The fact is they don't have one employee per school which is pretty typical for districts capable of funding a real police department as opposed to putting poorly trained, inexperienced security guards into schools (a really bad idea from many perspectives). And the reality is a police department takes money away from educating the kids, big time.

    Maybe Sandy Hook Elementary School could have afforded one armed old fat guy sitting in front of the building and maybe he could have done something, but likely he'd just be among the dead.

    IMHO there's a reality here we need to face.
    • We don't want to create "reverse prisons" in our schools to keep all the threats out if for no other reason than either you would have to fire all the educators or triple your taxes.
    • Connecticut has pretty stringent gun control. Nancy Lanza supposedly was a bit of a gun enthusiast and took her kids shooting. But her guns were registered and legally purchased.
    • Adam Lanza had mental problems, was 20 years old, and should have been part of that taxpayer provided care and treatment system we dismantled in the 1980's in the name of both civil rights and saving the taxpayers money.
    When I read about a guy like Adam Lanza who in the end intended to kill himself, regardless of whatever else I think I know here was a guy who was "hurting" for lack of a better term. And nobody seemed to have been aware of his situation. That says far more about our communities than about the perpetrator.:(
  4. fluffybear

    fluffybear Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Club

    Jun 19, 2004
    So the statement "spend some of that government salary" is an indication you are aware school districts have budget woes? You fooled me! What that statement really means is ...
  5. djlong

    djlong Hall Of Fame

    Jul 8, 2002
    New Hampshire
    There's a lot of blame to go around once you get past the shooter.

    Something that was attributed to Morgan Freeman today got me thinking about perspective and the script that gets trotted out every time one of these shootings hits the news.

    We get the predictable, useless and completely off-base gun-control argument. Why is it useless and off-base? Because the gun is the tool. It's the symptom. The disease is the person wielding it. Wringing our hands about gun control and gun laws (not to be confused with the gun *culture*) ignores too many other things.

    We have the news themselves. I can't find a single channel that is not dominated - 100% - by this. I can barely find the WEATHER. *WHY* is this being covered non-stop? It's not like there is new stuff to report every 60 seconds. ENOUGH ALREADY.

    And then I get to what I really hate about the news - and Freeman brought this up. Thanks to them, we know the names Dylan and Klebold - but how many of us remember ONE victim of Columbine? We know the names of the people who shot up Fort Hood, VA Tech, the theater in Colorad, Norway, etc.. But the victims are forgotten except that they are a number and a location. The news makes celebrities out of these scumbags. If it wasn't for the news, how many of these losers would have offed themselves in their basements instead of trying to suddenly "be somebody".

    On the news they were saying "if the numbers hold", this would be the 2nd worst school shooting - as if there can be a better or worse. So what's next when one of these depressed sociopaths decides to make his blaze of glory and go out guns blazing? A maternity ward?

    Yes - we all want to know the answer to the question "why?". And a significant number of people decide they already KNOW the answer. It's society. It's the parents. It's because he couldn't pray in school or because he was FORCED to pray at home. It gets ridiculous.

    A few years ago, we had a horrific murder here in southern NH. A woman was butchered and her daughter nearly killed when some sociopaths invaded their home armed with machetes in the middle of the night. You can imagine my shock when, 2 days later, I see a picture of one of the killers on a local paper's website, front and center. I knew his father - one of the best people I've ever known in my life. I knew him - the killer. He wanted to date one of my daughters. We were in a group that met every Friday night and became friends. He was a Eagle Scout, community volunteer, respectful - the very picture of the "All American Boy". Now he's doing life in prison. Believe me, I know how you just want to scream WHY at the top of your lungs.

    Every time this happens nowadays, I see Chris' (the killer's) picture staring at me. The shock I felt. I'm reminded that there are no answers - none that will satisfy.

    I try to keep things in perspective. Schools are safer these days. Heck, where I work, we have what's called the "active shooter drill". (Ok, I work at an Air Force base but it was the Ft. Hood shootings that were the genesis of the exercise)

    Was it mental illness? Probably had something to do with that since "normal" people don't do what he did - it's one of the reasons it's so newsworthy.

    Was it guns? Again, that was the symptom - the tool. How many people are aware that there's an epidemic of people going crazy in *Chinese* schools with knives? Nine different attacks between March 2010 and September 2011. You don't hear much about them, do you?

    Is this new? Hardly. Take a look at the deadliest school *killings*. You'll find it was in *1927* - 38 kids in a Bath Township, MI school bombing.

    Yes, it's still too soon (not even 36 hours) to have an adult discussion about all the factors here. Nerves are still raw.

    But we'll *never* have that discussion in this country. We just don't do "preventative medicine" here. Whether it's the "fiscal cliff" in Washington, the way we do health care (heaven forbid we do preventative stuff), or anything else... It always seems to be in the here and now - almost never planning for the future.

    We'll never talk about the gun *culture*. About what the 2nd Ammendment meant and still means (consider - back then, the musket WAS the "assault rifle", a "well regulated militia" meant well-trained, you knew how to use and maintain your weapon, citizens who could respond to a call to arms, i.e. everyone with a rifle). About how shabbily we treat mental health issues - partially because we just don't know enough. ...and then there's the stigma that doesn't exactly help.

    How do we tell the difference between the quiet loner who's going to shoot up a school versus the quiet loner who just doesn't want to be hurt by anyone?

    I've rambled on this long enough now...
  6. Carl Spock

    Carl Spock Superfly

    Sep 3, 2004

    from the New York Times
  7. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

    May 30, 2007
    Looks like we need a group to go to the school to counter a planned picket...can't say I'm surprised. Westboro is apparently on the way.
  8. trh

    trh This Space for Sale

    Nov 2, 2007
    NE FL
    I noticed some sites are referring to this group as a cult instead of a church.

    If they do show up, I'm not sure there is enough law enforcement in the area to protect these wackos.
  9. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

    Jan 4, 2006
    Is there a difference? :D
  10. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    Apr 17, 2003
    EVERYONE with a message will get in front of the cameras as much as possible ... even if their message has nothing to do with the people of Newton, the victims and their families, or the actual circumstances of the crime.

    That is one place where I see our media failing ... is when outsiders such as Westboro get any attention. There are plenty of other aspects to this story - hopefully coverage of that group can remain with alternative media.
  11. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

    May 30, 2007
    Not sure they really qualify as a cult...they are a family that is also a hate group. But, at least as of 2011, they had the same 501(c)(3) tax exempt status that churches do get.

    When they went to soldiers funerals, there was a large group of bikers that showed up to counter them.
  12. RasputinAXP

    RasputinAXP Kwisatz Haderach of Cordcuttery

    Jan 23, 2008
  13. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    Mar 20, 2010
    The penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime are already quite severe. That presupposes that the person will be convicted, which is not anywhere near a certainty in most cases.

    The penalty for multiple murders is usually life in prison or death (although defenses are available to any crime). And there won't be a penalty in this case, since the suspect is dead.
  14. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    Mar 20, 2010
    Your comments are quite intelligent. The culture needs to change.

    Guns, and the easy availability of guns, are part of the problem. The idea that a person who wants to kill will find another means to kill is not always true. Guns in America are cheap and available. They allow even a coward to inflict a large amount of death. A gun can instantly kill its target at no risk to and very little effort by the shooter. This is not lost on these criminals and thugs.

    The selfish nature of American society also needs to change, where people only care about enriching themselves and their own pleasure and couldn't care less about anyone else. The glorification of violence in movies and video games simply desensitizes people to reality.

    Truly, the USA is a great country and has afforded much opportunity to many, and has been a world leader since World War II. But, and this is a big but, our society in many ways is simply pathetic, ignorant, selfish, and violent.

    How long do you think it will be until this latest act of violence is forgotten? Two weeks?

    How long until the next one happens? A month?
  15. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    Mar 20, 2010
    Could you be more specific, rather than just referring to giving someone/something an "enema"? What about the justice system do you want to change? And do you realize that doing that would require shredding the constitution? People like to pick and choose the parts of the constitution that they like. Some like the second amendment, but would love to revamp the justice system by getting rid of the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments. Some love the first amendment, others hate it.

    But what about the system itself do you want to change? I'm not talking about building more prisons, or doing away with parole, or the death penalty. These are the results of the system. What about the system itself? Jury trial? Right to counsel? Search and seizure? Privilege against self incrimination?

    Why don't you write to your member of Congress and ask for Congress to call a constitutional convention?
  16. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

    Sep 20, 2004
    Galactic Empire
    Not in many places. Why not make it a federal crime with a mandatory minimum, said number to be determined?
  17. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    Mar 20, 2010
    That is a possibility, but I see a few problems. First, it doesn't get us past the problem of, will a crime committed with a gun be able to be prosecuted in the first place? Will there be enough evidence? Second, will jurors convict? Third, that would be a wholesale shift in responsibility from the states to the federal government. Will courts/jurors be willing to impose convictions and lengthy sentences for crimes committed with guns where no one is hurt? What if the gun used in the crime is not recovered? What if it is uncertain if the gun used was real or a toy? What if the crime is simply illegally carrying a gun?

    California has the toughest gun laws in the nation as far as providing for penalties for guns used in a crime, and as far as restricting availability of guns. Certainly I am aware that the laws California has imposed in this area have helped our state, and I support those laws, but we still have plenty of gun crime.
  18. Hoosier205

    Hoosier205 Active Member

    Sep 3, 2007
    I will never understand how anyone can look at the primary weapon he used to kill those children and say that there is some legitimate reason why they should be legal in this country.
  19. runner861

    runner861 Icon

    Mar 20, 2010
    I agree. Guns are not the entire problem, but they are part of the problem. Those who say that guns play no role in this are simply wrong. Many are tired of the NRA controlling this agenda.

    I saw a report on CBS News tonight, and I have no way of knowing if it is objective or biased. But it did seem to show that we have crossed a tipping point. There were several avid gun owners and members of organizations that advocate gun ownership saying that they were now ready to sign on to gun control legislation. Even Dick Cheney, a fervent supporter of gun rights, has called for banning ammunition magazines that hold more than ten bullets.
  20. MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

    May 17, 2010
    Shredding the Constitution? How melodramatic. I guess you never heard of amending it. What do I want changed? Term limits for the Supreme Court Justices rather than the life tenure they enjoy. Equal treatment for convicted pedifiles, police officers, prison guards, judges, and holders of public office while serving their sentence rather than the isolation from the general prison population they enjoy. A nationwide loss of your right to vote while serving a prison sentence......Write a member of Congress? Surely you jest. Need I remind you that Congress is the oposite of Progress?
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