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Missing odd TPNs for only the 101

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion' started by Dixit, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    Ive been having issues sporadically for the past two weeks now where only my odd transponders on the 101 are missing. The 99 and 103 are solid. Great signals, all above 94 (on the 99 and 103). I have a SL5 and the 110 and 119 are also good even though Atlanta market doesnt use them except I guess for guide data (which Im not entire sure if thats the case anymore either).

    Ive replaced the LNB with another SL5 and still having same issues. Ive rechecked all all the connections on the LNB (removed the coax connector and reconnected it to make sure its solid) and also same on both sides of the ground block. Randomly the 101 odd tpns come back. It seems when its colder it has these issues, but cant be 100% on it.

    Only item I really have left to replace is probably the multiswitch (which is inside my house). I could bypass it temporarily but it will take a while to check since its sporadic in and out. So its have to bypass it and wait a week.

    Just wanted to see what you all think on why its only the odd TPNs on the 101 only. I really dont care too much to be honest but I keep getting these no guide data in X amount of hours, so that makes me think its getting the guide data on the 101 like the SL3 LNB would. I thought with the SL5 LNB it got it off the 119. And only issue is that my kids love watching SprouTV which is obviously on the 101 and odd TPN so its been in and out. I really dont watch any SD tv at all.

    Dixit
     
  2. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007
    Seens you are on the right track.

    You should be able to bypass the multiswitch and get all transponders on a specific receiver. Select one sat line and one receiver line...barrel together.

    How many receivers (tuners) are you using?...Is the problem on all?

    Joe
     
  3. RobertE

    RobertE New Member

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    Jun 9, 2006
    Simpler test.

    Swap the 13v & 18v lines.

    If you continue to drop the odds, it's the switch. If you start dropping evens, then it's something between the switch and lnb.
     
  4. ndole

    ndole Problem Solver

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    Aug 26, 2009
    That should go on the CSR script! :lol:
     
  5. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    I got an HR22, HR21, HR20 and a H23. Its definetely hapening on the HR22 and HR21 (still at this moment no odd tpns on the 101 only). Just checked the old HR20 and its actually got all signals on the 101, very odd. H23 also doesnt show the odd tpns on the 101. So one out of the 4 actually work somehow.

    Thats defintely a good thing to know and test. I may do that soon, but now the one HR20 thats working is bugging me on why one out 4 work. I got a 6x8 multiswitch that DirecTV installed. We are using 6 of the 8 ports. The HR22 and HR21 are both getting dual feeds and the other two (HR20 and H23) are getting single feeds.

    Dixit
     
  6. SA Holly Springs GA

    SA Holly Springs GA Cool Member

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    Oct 23, 2010
    I haven't seen many 6x8's go bad(zinwells). But that is my guess if you've replaced the lnb already.

    It's one or the other.
     
  7. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    Well switched the 13v and 18v lines on the Zinwell 6x8 for the 101 inputs and that didnt change anything. Still got 0s on the odd TPNs.

    But oddly that HR20 with a single feed off the 6x8 still gets full signal, can even watch channel 295 (SprouTV) where other 3 cant get anything on the odd TPNs.

    Could it be the 6x8 flaking out on just allowing one of the outputs to work?

    Dixit
     
  8. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    Did some more testing, dont look like its the switch but not so sure its the LNB either. I bypassed the switch for one receiver and one by one hooked it to one of the 4 lines coming into the multiswitch. Each one had problems on the HR22 (the test receiver I used to bypass the multiswitch) where the odd tpns on 101 didnt show. These are now straight lines from the dish to the reciever at this point and still not getting odd TPN on the 101. So I put it back together on the multiswitch and decided to randomly move around all the output sides (going to the recievers). And still the damn HR20 is still getting signal on the 101 just fine including the odd TPNs, can even watch the 295 channel.

    So Im completely lost. If it truly was the LNB then that one reciever I dont think should be getting anything on the 101 even with me flipping the 13v and 18v lines and then again flipping them even around with the other set of 13/18v (the 110/119 ones)

    Then again cant be receivers as there are three of them that dont seem to show odd tpns on 101, they all cant be bad.

    Dixit
     
  9. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007
    Know that the test Robert E presented does work because the receiver sends 13v and 18v power to the LNB on the center wire and receives signal from the Sat, dish & LNB on the outside shield in pulses. (or it could be the other way-forget). One path is discovered to be defective in this manner.

    SO while all your receivers are probably not failed...it could be a common problem with a fitting or cable.

    Don't randomly switch things. Establish one line that works from the LNB to the switch to the receiver & TV. Then substitute all receivers( 8 tuners) to verify that they do work on that line. Then move the known-to-work receivers back to the original positions. Verify the lines and fittings with known-to-work.jumpers.

    You are using two lines to each of four receivers (2 tuners ea). You have four lines going into the switch and eight serving four HDDVRs....+ there are four fittings on the LNB....that is a lot of fittings! They all (24) have to be correct, as do the cable runs (12).

    DO MAKE NOTES AND RECORD RESULTS. Chart results for each of the eight tuners. Switch any working tuner lines at the receivers ---note defective lines. Then identify all lines at the switch to know where they are going. Using a toner is quick. Disconnecting one tuner at the switch at a time, marking where the lines go will help you find defects.

    Look for stables, a common point where cable runs and could have been damaged. Let us know what you find.

    Installers are asked to test all this at activation. Did things ever work?

    Joe
     
  10. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007
    Might not be that EZ. Cx pulls fitting...fitting separates...now two problems. Some customers have the capabilities to rebuild their system...others should be kept away from everything. It is hard to tell the difference over the phone.

    Joe
     
  11. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    I will try to test all the items you mentioned in your post. I was going to start with moving my HR20 which works to the HR22 spot and vice versa to see if its a line or connector as you said and start moving from there.

    But to answer your last question, this system has been working 100% solid when it was installed over 2yrs ago. Its just recently in the past 1-2weeks its been flaking in and out.

    Dixit
     
  12. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007
    That is an important clue. It could be a common ding to all cable / fittings near the switch. Somebody could have snagged or tripped on some or all the cables ...pulling some apart inside the fitting. The rat / rodent thing is possible....squirrel bites on cable loop etc.

    If there are a lot of staples used to secure the cable check these for cable cuts and or over tight attachment. Incorrect staples are a known problem...especially outside.

    If the switch is installed outside check each connection. The switch will be fine but the fittings need verification.

    Joe
     
  13. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    Well I just decided to swap my HR20 and HR22 positions around. So the HR22 in the spot where the HR20 works fine, still doesnt work, still no odd tpns on the 101. So then gets you thinking maybe it is line/connectors as you suspect.

    But then this is where it gets interesting the HR20 in the same spot where the HR22 cant get any signal on the odd 101s, it works just fine, booted up, all satellites come in fine. So cant be the line/connectors as far as that room is concerned or the original room the HR20 came from.

    Do you think it can be voltage/power related? Why is it this old HR20 seems to grab signal where the other 3 cant. Could it still be a flakey connector somewhere and the HR20 just has enough juice to get by where maybe the newer H23, HR21, HR22 dont have as much juice or maybe less tolerance and cant grab the signal?

    BTW that test was performed with the 6x8 still in the middle so its not bypassed.

    Dixit
     
  14. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007
    Hmmmmmmm!

    The reason for bypassing the switch is to verify the line. Running each of the four lines separately from the dish to a receiver tells you that each of the four sat lines is ok..

    .Then connect the four sat lines to the switch and repeating by connecting the good receiver to each of the eight outputs will verify the switch.

    Then connecting each of the suspected receivers to a known-to-be-good line tests the receivers.

    One power surge could ding multiple receivers.

    This assumes that the multiswitch frame has been used as a ground block. This is a standard practice.

    IF there is also a four point ground block being used this too must be added to the tests or bypassed. A defective ground block would give you all the symptoms you describe. And it adds eight fittings to test. Three of four GB fittings would be rare but you gotta look.

    Specifications for the receivers is way above my pay grade. They are supposed to be interchangeable but it could be as you say....don't know how to test that.

    Another common one is wet leaves still on trees in fall......if everything gets better an about a month. . .

    Joe
     
  15. TwoPhases

    TwoPhases Legend

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    Jul 20, 2010
    I had this problem a while back when my wife & I were still renting. I ended up replacing the lnb (phase III). When that didn't help, I replaced both of the 2 coax lines (that we used) as well. Was easy since the old dish was in our balcony & the lines went through the windows with flat coax. Point is, sometimes old connections just die. Good luck!
     
  16. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009
    well I ran the 4 lines straight to the receivers, same thing, all work except the HR20. Move the HR20 around it continues to work on all 4 lines. So that means the lines and connectors seem good.

    Elimnated the entire ground block outsid (put in 4 barrel connectors temporarily) and still no change, newer receivers dont work for the odd tpns on 101, but HR20 continues to work.

    Put it all back to normal, still same issue, HR20 continues to work. Somehow this "oldie" is cranking away but the newer ones refuse to lock onto the odd tpns on the 101 no matter if its straight line, via multiswitch, different rooms, dont matter.

    So threw in the towel and called DTV who will be sending a tech out tomorrow to take a look. They sending three new boxes with him because they suspect the 3 newer ones couldve taken a hit, not sure how that happens and old one doesnt when they all on t he same 6x8 switch and ground block. Who knows. But hopefully we will know in 24hrs what the deal is or isnt.

    Dixit
     
  17. eakes

    eakes Godfather

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    Sep 21, 2007
    This sounds like a ground loop problem. The H20 is the only one of your boxes that actually has a three-prong plug, ie chassis ground connected to AC ground. All the other boxes have no AC ground connection - their only connection is to AC neutral. Somewhere in the system there is a voltage being (other than the DC voltage from the receivers) applied across the coax. This extraneous voltage is messing with the tuning voltages from the various receivers.

    You stated this worked until about 2 weeks ago. On or about that time was any change made in connections of TVs or audio systems to the DTV boxes? Is the ground connection at the coax entry point free of corrosion both at the block and where it attaches to AC ground? Is that wire intact from block to AC ground?

    Ground loops can be a real pain to find and eliminate. After verifying the ground connection at the entry block, I would start with only one box connected to the system (remove coax connections from all other receivers in the house) and see if that gives positive results, if not, try that receiver connected to a different TV. Try all the different boxes from the same location, something should work other than the H20 as it is extremely unlikely that all the other receivers are defective.
     
  18. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007
    Report how it goes.

    Also, report what the tech does.

    Changes out the boxes only = busy new guy

    Can't find your house, stuff doesn't work on departure = released-
    too-soon trainee

    Finds something you haven't tried = experienced cool man

    Gets the old boxes to run by resets, dish selection or re peaking = don't
    ya just hate it

    I think all points to dead boxes. A remote possibility = note which boxes are now or have been connected to the telco lines. IF the one that worked was never connected, that is a remote but possible explanation....surge from the telco.

    Report how it goes.

    Joe
     
  19. joe diamond

    joe diamond Hall Of Fame

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    Feb 28, 2007


    I like it!.

    Three defective receivers is real rare!

    There used to be lots of problems with older residences that had BX cable and no third plug for ground. Having stolen the grounding plug from a washing machine or similar modern item the problem would persist.

    The cure was then extension cords to other outlets.

    SO DTV eliminated the three prong plug. Brilliant!

    In this instance removing the ground wire from the ground block could cure all...but is a symptom of a dangerous situation.

    The test would be to cycle all receivers through the one location where the working receiver is installed. IF that gets them running it is a ground fault / electrical problem that will also ding the new receivers. IF they still fail on the known-to be- good circuit the boxes have a problem.

    Joe
     
  20. Dixit

    Dixit Mentor

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    Mar 2, 2009

    Its been in and out 2weeks ago, back then i could reset the box and get it to hold for a few days. Nothing has changed from a wiring perspective on any of the areas that have the 3 newer boxes. There is a ground block outside and it is properly grounded to the same rod that the main house line is grounded to. Then the lines off the ground block come into the house and then attach to a multiswitch that is inside the house. That multiswitch is not grounded, its just 4 lines in, 6lines out at the moment.

    Ive eliminated the ground block entire as I mentioned earlier using 4 barrels so I know its not that. Ive ruled out the 6x8 as well by bypassing it entirely. It just is plain mind boggling that the damn new ones cant lock on the odds on 101 anymore but the old one no matter what room, what position (bypassed 6x8, via 6x8, bypassed ground block, with ground block).

    I had to give up since each time I move a receiver and restart it, it takes 5-8mins just to know if it worked or not, then moving it to another room, going to the basement where the 6x8 is and lines come in to bypass or not, i wasted a good 3-4hrs on this today and just ran out of time since Im working as well. I work out of my house a Software Architect.

    Dixit
     

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