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mountain network /pac12 network...

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Programming' started by sticketfan, May 18, 2012.

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  1. Jun 19, 2012 #101 of 1671
    tonyd79

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    Nope. They will all be available. There will not be enough content for seven channels. The cable systems in an area will only get two. And I'll bet they will get everything produced by the network. Again, look at the BTN. Everyone gets it all.

    The PAC 12 is trying to create a boutique feel but it makes no sense.
     
  2. Jun 19, 2012 #102 of 1671
    tonyd79

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    If the PAC 12 takes that stance, they are morons. You cannot squeeze bandwidth that does not exist. Physics does not change. Maybe directv will go spot beam for the local channels and conus for national and games but no way do I see them dedicating 7 full channels to one conference. They don't carry longhorn at all.
     
  3. Jun 19, 2012 #103 of 1671
    maartena

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    There is a few problems I see with streaming:

    1) Not everyone has internet. A recent survey said that 1 in 5 Americans do not have (or do not want) a Internet connection. Furthermore, outside the larger urban areas many internet connections top at about 3 Mbps, which isn't great for HD streaming.

    2) People want to watch their games in HD on a big screen. Sure, you can get some sort of device that will hook up to a TV so you can watch a stream on it, and there might be a way to integrate it into current Whole Home DVR networked DirecTV units.... but depending on you internet speed, you might be able to get a stream going on 1 TV, and turning on a second TV might result in SECONDS difference in the buffering/streaming, making it a very unpleasant experience if you want to throw a garage/livingroom/yard sports party with a few TV's going.

    3) Sportsbars. They can't change their entire setup just to show HD streams over the internet. Many sports bars don't even have more then a single T-1 line (or even a slower DSL line) as all they need to push across it is Credit Card transactions. They are not coffee houses that have students with laptops utilizing wifi, they are sports bars where one corner watches USC vs some team, and another corner watches UCLA vs some other team.

    Streaming is just not going to work, and is more likely to get sports bars to get an account going with a cable network that does carry the games. (Such as TWC in the Los Angeles area), and keep DirecTV only still for Sunday Ticket.

    Cable has it a lot easier. TWC in Los Angeles really only has to have TWO channels, being the main channel, and the one that shows USC/UCLA games. The cable outlets in cities like Portland, San Diego, Boise, etc will only need the same as well: 1 for the main network, and 1 for the channel that shows the games of the local teams. And that will keep 90% of people happy, as 90% is mostly interested in the local team.

    DirecTV has to supply bandwidth for all stations on a CONUS basis. Now they could decide to place the 6 extra channels on LIL beams, but the market area for some of the teams goes well beyond the LIL beam, and those beams also aren't unlimited in bandwidth.

    The Los Angeles situation is really screwed. In essence, they will almost certainly be going from 2 RSN's to 5 RSN's, 1 being the national PAC12 channel. So off the bat, CONUS transponder bandwidth is very likely to be increased by at least 3. And although the Los Angeles market DMA for the Lakers and college team is actually quite HUGE, no one in the other 90% of the country is really going to care, and is probably going to be very disappointed that DirecTV is going to have to use some of the precious bandwidth it has left for far-away-sports.

    DirecTV is also a very big, major player in the Los Angeles market. They are headquartered here, and they may very well be the biggest player in this market nowadays. I see DirecTV dishes everywhere. When I spot a Satellite Dish, 9 out of 10 times it is a DirecTV one. So I think DirecTV is at risk of losing customers in the Los Angeles area if they do not secure the broadcasting of the Lakers (which is separate completely from this PAC12 of course) and the USC/UCLA teams.

    I won't miss any of the above teams actually (I am more in to hockey and baseball), but I do know that these teams are VERY important to the L.A. market. USC Football is bigger here then any NFL team, mostly of course due to the lack of one, and the USC stadium holds about 90k people, and the UCLA Rose Bowl holds about the same.

    Somehow, DirecTV has to find a way to carry all the games in their respective markets, and still make it viable financially and technically. They have said they will "go black" if they have to, but realistically, they probably can't do that for more then a week or two into the season before they start bleeding customers at a rapid pace.

    To be continued.... as usual, we'll probably won't know if these channels are going to be launched until Sixto spots them a few days before their launch.
     
  4. Jun 19, 2012 #104 of 1671
    maartena

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    The bandwidth, however, does exist. 2 Transponders with 6 spots each are being used to shuffle around channels, mostly to get 6 HD per transponder instead of 5, so there is going to be enough bandwidth to get all these channels up and running plus a few more.

    The bigger problems for most of us is going to be that the bandwidth might NOT be used for "basic" HD, which is what many people want.

    In regards to Longhorn, they are dedicated to 1 single university, not a conference of 12 universities, of which about half of those teams are in a bigger market then the Longhorns. Also don't forget it is not all football, pretty much all main sports plus many not so popular will be played and broadcasted by PAC12, including things like track & field, volleyball, lacrosse, etc. And besides baseball there will be softball, and with soccer both male and female leagues will be shown. So there is a LOT of programming to consider, some of it being popular (football, basketball, baseball), some of it not so much.

    Personally I believe that the sports lovers will be made happy in Q3, and the basic HD lovers will be left gnawing dry bones till at least Q4.
     
  5. Jun 19, 2012 #105 of 1671
    maartena

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    This is probably old news to most, but this is what the Boston Herald wrote a few days ago:

    --
    Asked Thursday what options a DirecTV subscriber would have come September if a deal isn’t struck, Gary Stevenson, president of Pac-12 Enterprises, said:

    "Your options for watching the games if you don’t have Pac-12 Networks are to become a customer of one of the affiliates that do. We’re working hard on new affiliate agreements. ... We continue to work hard to make that happen."

    --

    Sounds like PAC12 is digging themselves in. And I am sure DirecTV is already digging trenches as well, so this will probably be a standoff till the VERY last minute.
     
  6. Jun 19, 2012 #106 of 1671
    tonyd79

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    Which boxes them in for future expansion until the new satellite is up and running. Not a good way to do business. Throw all your eggs at one basket.
    No, the bigger problem is throwing expensive bandwidth at limted programming. Bandwidth, plus all the support hardware to run it, costs money. I don't think DirecTV sees a bunch of people pounding on the door to see a coaches show that will be on other channels.

    But they do not even do longhorn locally. Or even in SD (which Fios does nationally). My point is that they are not going to waste bandwidth on programming that does not stand up to the need. One university in Texas and two per channel (less when you factor in the national channel) is not all that different, especially when I am sure that DirecTV is willing to put all the games on a la BTN.

    Finally, there is not THAT much programming. The Big Ten is identical to the Pac 12 in the regards of programming (with probably broader appeal) and yet they struggle to fill one station. Why would DirecTV even entertain seven channels for the Pac 12 when they already see the perfect model in the BTN.

    THAT is the point. And the Pac 12 doesn't get it.
     
  7. Jun 19, 2012 #107 of 1671
    maartena

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    Well, here is what I understand about that..... Currently, all college sports from the PAC12 Universities is shown on regional RSN's. In the Los Angeles Area, the USC and UCLA sports are shown on Fox Sports West and Prime Ticket, and it DOES happen that USC plays University X on the exact same time (or an hour difference so it overlaps) as UCLA playing some other University as well. Now, since many of the prime league games in weekends (such as NFL, NBA) are shown on national networks, and sometimes on local outlets such as KCAL9, Fox Sport and Prime Ticket can easily broadcast USC and UCLA. Midweek games are often planned AROUND major league games, and with local channels as overflow (KCAL9 --> Dodgers, Lakers -- KDOC --> Ducks) they have been able to plan it just fine. Additionally, some games may be shown on CBS College Sports and ESPN-U, but neither is available to all packages and providers, and might need a sports package subscription.

    In the new scenario, it seems that PAC12 is wanting to retain the broadcast rights and not negotiate a contract with local RSN's, in essence wanting to put their own RSN's in place.

    Now, Big Ten still utilizes local RSN's for their Universities sport, so games are shown on whatever the local RSN is for that region, and shares (just like now with FSW and FSPT in the L.A. region) with the Major League team in that region.

    Personally, I think that this is how it should be. Fox Sports is already losing the Lakers to Time Warner, they can easily show all the USC/UCLA sports. Although I do think that they are going to show some more sports then they are now, with the loss of the Lakers and the addition of 1 single PAC12 channel, that should work just fine.

    But it seems like PAC12 wants their 7 channels. So in the end DirecTV is going to have to make the tough choices:

    1) Lose PAC12, Lose Customers.
    2) Gain PAC12, Keep Customers, but lose a big chunk of bandwidth.
    3) Get just the main channel, let PAC12 Negiotiate with existing RSN's for games.

    Option 3 is probably the best compromise for DirecTV. But there is one big problem with that: PAC12 has already made deals with Time Warner Cable, Comcast, Cox and Brighthouse who WILL carry the channels..... which essentially means that option 3 is off the table. The channels will exist, TWC will carry them, and will show the games. PAC12 has signed deals with ESPN and FOX (national broadcast) as well for national games, and those games won't broadcast on the PAC12 networks.

    See here for a schedule of those games:
    http://sports.blogs.mydesert.com/2012/06/14/fox-sports-espn-make-pac-12-football-selections/

    But PAC12 is also selling advertising space on the new networks, and won't want to enter into an agreement with local RSN's (such as Fox Sports West or Prime Ticket) to ALSO show the same games so that Dish and DirecTV viewers can see them, because that would give the TWC viewer a choice, and for advertisers it might mean a more then 50% viewership loss because the local FS RSN's are available in the most basic of packages, even still in analog. And I don't think they will let that happen.

    So with the knowledge that the channels WILL be launched, and games WILL be shown on it, and pretty much all cable outlets being ON BOARD already.....it may come down to a showdown between option 1 and option 2. PAC12 is not going to be willing to risk losing their advertisers or sell a lot less advertising space.... so to get the games, it really is looking towards a "get the channels or bite the dust" scenario.

    Which does indeed not bode well for other HD additions.
     
  8. Jun 19, 2012 #108 of 1671
    sum_random_dork

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    Not sure if this has been answered, but the new deal with the Pac 12 all member schools have signed over all digital and TV rights to the new channel. So yes, all sports will be covered under this deal. The deal is also written so that the Pac 12 gets #1 pick of games on certain weeks, alternating between ESPN and Fox.

    I agree we don't need all 7 channels and I am sure both sides know they need each other, DirecTV (and Dish) don't want to see their western sub base leave to other cable/telcos and the Pac 12 wants the high # of eyeballs DirecTV and Dish can offer. When you step back you can see it makes sense for both sides. (remember the media markets covered under this channel-LA, SF Bay Area, Seattle, Denver, PHX, SLC, and also sub markets like Sacramento and San Diego)

    As for the online digital streaming, I am not sure how it will work. The latest I have read we won't be able to purchase it as a standalone product. The streaming will be included as part of your programing (like watch ESPN).
     
  9. Jun 19, 2012 #109 of 1671
    maartena

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    Online streaming isn't really going to work for sports bars.
     
  10. Jun 19, 2012 #110 of 1671
    maartena

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    I would imagine that this DOES mean that the schools will not be able to show the games on any other networks besides the ones covered in the deal.

    So in essence, it has become a question for DirecTV whether they want to lose access to certain sports teams and lose customers, or get the channels and keep the customers.

    But there may be a compromise deal..... e.g. "we will carry the main network and 2 regional networks, and you put MOST games on those 2 networks, and the less important stuff on other networks", and thus maybe pleasing 90% of customers interested in the schools, and only pissing off a few..... so it becomes a balance between customers lost and bandwidth retained to.... perhaps keep OTHER customers happy.

    All I know is that DirecTV is facing some tough choices and challenges.
     
  11. Jun 19, 2012 #111 of 1671
    inkahauts

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    I think You guys have a different impression overall than I do about the six local channels and the one national channel for the PAC 12.

    The way I have always understood it is that if you have the PAC 12 national channel, and you get all the other national providers they have partnered with, you will not loose a single conference game vs the old format no matter where you are located. In fact, you will see more games, because they are now spreading all their major sports out over more days of the week and more national channels so that more schools will get national coverage of football and basketball games.

    If you only get the regional channels, then you will get all conference games that are broadcast live on the national channel that are major sports no matter what teams are playing as long as its a conference game, plus lots more sports contests and other localized programing for your area out of those two schools who's area you are in. Also, I believe they said they will never televise major sports games, like say two different football games at the same time if they are being carried by the PAC 12 networks if its a conference game, and this is how they are going to accomplish all this. However I do see that they may have been a little sneaky, because they are showing non conference games at the same times. (Kind of logical since they have up to 12 games the first couple weeks instead of usually somewhere around six to do in a weekend) That's what you might loose if DIRECTV only picks up the national channel because then you will only see which every game the national channel carries live.

    I'd guess they will repeat on the national channel the other games that where on at the same time latter in the day, so while possibly annoying for anyone not in the home market of a game that's shown live, this still means more games for the other four markets than they have ever had before overall even if they are only via a repeat. It's the markets that don't get their games live that will be annoyed, which appears to be up to two games a week. Maybe the pac12 will let DIRECTV and possibly dish show those extra games live via part time channels, since they are the only two carriers anywhere that would need to actually carry more than one channels to get all their locals no matter what if they only pick up the main national feed. (I'd guess cable operators that pick up the national feed will still see the local regional games live)

    I think the PAC 12 system was designed with the idea that the regional channels would be picked up regionally, and the national one by everyone else. DIRECTV and dish are just a different situation.

    Personally, I'd like to see DIRECTV pick up the national network nationally, and then regionals via spot beams as a bare minimum. That would also allow everyone to get everyone they have ever had, and probably keep costs overall lower, then showing all the regionals nationally. Meith that or a couple part times for sports and basketball when it's absolutely necessary, which may only be a handful of times a year.

    Overall, they say they are going from around 350 games televised each year to over 500, so there is no way to do that without having regional channels. That is a huge jump, so I get why they are doing what hey are doing.

    Does anyone know how many more games the big ten is showing now than they where before they launched that network?
     
  12. Jun 19, 2012 #112 of 1671
    inkahauts

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    There is no way that the PAC 12 will or could negotiate any of their games off their networks (or simulcast) to any other RSN. That was the whole point of starting their own networks, so they didn't have to play second fiddle to pro sports, so they could show more games and sports overall by a big increase, and so they they could also leverage that for more national coverage of some games on espn, etc. They have succeeded in doing just what they where after. All of that leeds to more revenue because of more exposure, and more advertising dollars, as you said.. I think there may be some middle ground in there for your option one and option two, and I hope that's where they land, for the sake of everyone. The question is, at what price to DIRECTV and dish subscribers.

    Also, in Los Angeles, if the Dodgers defect to the Lakers twc channel, it's entirely possible one of our RSNs could go away, or become an alternate channel only. That might help lower some costs to offset all this overall, however, that wouldn't be for a couple years, and I don't think that situation is possibly going to take place in the other five markets.
     
  13. Jun 19, 2012 #113 of 1671
    maartena

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    I think the spot-beam solution is probably the best. It will get 90% of the customers satisfied. It might be a problem for sports bars (or people in general) that live in Las Vegas, that aren't on the Socal, Norcal, or Phoenix/Tuscon spotbeams but on their own.... and don't have a Pac12 University, but I suppose they will have to live with just the main network.

    There is the increase in games factor, and the fact that the Universities have signed over the rights to PAC12, so you are probably going to need a bare minimum of 2 channels in each location (being the primary and 1 local) to get all games broadcasted.

    I also believe the PAC12 is going to broadcast more sports that they haven't broadcasted until now, e.g. track and field, volleyball, etc... but those are probably not very popular anyways.

    I don't know if the local spot beams of all the areas have enough bandwidth, and I also don't know whether the spot beams cover the entire region. With pro teams like the Lakers, the market includes Nevada, half of California, parts of Arizona, and Hawaii, so CONUS (+Hawaii) is needed there. I don't know how far say USC/UCLA reaches currently with Fox Sports West and Prime Ticket, but I would imagine it is/was about the same as the Lakers. So there may be some argument for CONUS spots.... we'll have to wait and see.
     
  14. Jun 19, 2012 #114 of 1671
    JoeTheDragon

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    so what happens when a pac12 team plays a non pac12 team that is out of area?? does that other team views get locked out? shows up on a alt or ppv or maybe if it's big like a BIG ten them they pickup of the game or CSN or FSN will.

    Also I don't see cable having all 7 channels full time or maybe full time SD only.
     
  15. Jun 19, 2012 #115 of 1671
    buck1973

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    The Big Ten does not utilize local RSNs.
     
  16. Jun 20, 2012 #116 of 1671
    maartena

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    That might be less likely then you think. Fox Sports with its 2 channels will retain the MLB Angels, NBA Clippers, and NHL Ducks and Kings.

    Now I see you thinking: 4 teams big deal, they can share 1 channel. And you would be right, besides a few Ducks/Kings conflicts which can be solved with a few Ducks games pushed to KDOC, that would easily fit on 1 channel. Even with L.A. Galaxy added as well.

    However, San Diego has Prime Ticket on all of their cable systems.... as they have no NBA, no MLS, and no NHL team and the L.A. Galaxy, Ducks, Kings and Clippers games are shown in San Diego, where the Angels (obviously) are not. So Prime Ticket has been a full time RSN in San Diego for many years, together with Fox Sports San Diego which handles Padres and Chargers.

    If anything, the NEW TWC networks will only have THREE major teams (being Lakers, Dodgers, and MLS Chivas USA), and as far as number of games per year, have less of a reason to have two networks..... were it not they chose to go bilingual. Which, by the way, is something Fox might also want to do with FSW and PT if it catches on with the latino population.
     
  17. Jun 20, 2012 #117 of 1671
    maartena

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    They have deals however with multiple national channels, among which ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN-U, ABC Local Affiliates. In other words, they have a CONUS outlet for their games already.
     
  18. Jun 20, 2012 #118 of 1671
    inkahauts

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    Huh? Broadcasting rights I am sure will follow the same wonderfully easy to understand rules they do now! :rolleyes:

    As I said earlier, I think that the pac 12 expects cable companies in each pac 12 region to pick up the local channel, and maybe the national, and that's it. I think their goal for non pac 12 areas is just the national channel.

    That's why dish and directv both are such a different animal for the pac 12 to deal with. Their entire distribution system is different.
     
  19. Jun 20, 2012 #119 of 1671
    inkahauts

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    First, you are a little behind on something. Galaxy will be on the new lakers channel, as will the sparks. Those are already done deals. Chivas I have not heard anything on them moving yet.

    Do not forget that fox also owns kcop 13 in LA.

    And there is no reason they can't put programming from FSN west on the new san diego station if PT is either removed, ort actually as you say and I have also said previously, tuned into a Spanish version of the fsn west channel to mirror what TWC is going to do.

    I could easily see the following happening in the next five years or so.

    TWC: All Lakers, All Galaxy, Most Ducks and a majority of Dodgers games.

    KCAL and or KDOC: Left Over Dodgers and Ducks games.

    FSN: ALL Angels, Chivas, Most Kings, and majority of Clippers,

    KCOP left over Clippers and Kings games.

    Both having Spanish versions of their channels.

    In the event of a major conflict where those channels alone cant cover all the sports, I see no reason to believe the providers won't use their Spanish channels in English for a night. That would be very very rare though.

    Think of it this way, they get all these games from all these teams on two rsns, and three OTA stations now, and the new situation I discribe is the exact same thing, so why would it not work if they split everything just right.

    Also, Angels, Lakers, Kings, Galaxy, Sparks are not going anywhere anytime soon, they have all recently signed long term deals with their broadcasters. At most, only dodgers, chivas, ducks and clippers will be free in the next few years to be moving around.

    San Diego Sports getting left over games from the FSN West channel.
     
  20. Jun 20, 2012 #120 of 1671
    WebTraveler

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    Bandwidth exists, it just comes down to how you use it. Do you use it to show 100+ channels of PPV movies? Infomercials? Some of this bandwidth WAS being used to carry the games on the various RSNs and RSN alternates in the past.

    Does something gotta give? YES.
     
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