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MPEG2 HD space available soon?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Programming' started by Fluthy, Nov 11, 2008.

  1. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    OK.. if you really want to know...

    In Jan there where TWO feeds of West DNS...

    1 feed was the same as it had always been.. MPEG-2 HD on the channels in the 80's Coming from the 110 and 119 sat locations

    1 feed was in MPEG-4 on D10 in the 390's....

    On March 30th, they killed off the MPEG-2 HD feeds, and moved the MPEG-4 feeds from D10 to the 110 and 119 sat locations and mirrored them in the 80's AND in the 390's...

    Then in September, they moved them from 110 and 119 to D11, where the now reside and completely turned off the channels in the 80's for west feeds..
     
  2. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by matched in quality?

    And Directv will keep 110 and 119 because they NEED the bandwidth to supply alll their programing.. It has nothing to do with Dish other than wanting to offer LILs everywhere like dish...
     
  3. Jeremy W

    Jeremy W Hall Of Fame

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    He is saying that DirecTV could lower their quality down to Dish's level, and offer 200 channels. I would rather not see them do that, since I'm happy with the current quality, and bandwidth is not what's stopping us from getting more channels.
     
  4. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    If thats what he is saying, then I hope he stays a Dish customer forever... Quality is priority number one, and they can get to 200 channels in HD as they change out equipment, add sats, and other things of that nature...

    Why would anyone want to see their picture quality DOWNGRADED?

    Oh, and what GOOD channels in HD are missing from Directv that would vault their number of channels up to 200.. If you take out the PPVHD channels, I just don't think that their are really that many good HD channels out there left to be added... yet..
     
  5. Jeremy W

    Jeremy W Hall Of Fame

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    Because it would mean more channels. There's always a tradeoff between PQ and channel selection. If we had 75 channels instead of 100 right now, we could have even better PQ than we do now. But this is the balance that DirecTV has chosen, and many people find it to be a good one. An argument can still be made, though, that DirecTV could afford to push the PQ down a bit in order to squeeze in more channels. I'm definitely not making that argument, but I can see where HDRoberts is coming from.
     
  6. HDRoberts

    HDRoberts Godfather

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    Correct. We would all like to see our top 20 channels or so in top quality full bit rate. Herein lies the problem: we all have a different to set of channels. One man's wast of bandwidth is another man's treasure. My choices tend to be more eclectic. I'm sure 90% of you would like to see ESPN become the first 1080p channel. However, I only watch it a couple time a year (MNF when the Browns are on, NFL Draft, that's about it), so to me, it's a waste of space. I actually watch more World Fishing Network than ESPN.

    My point was many were saying that DirecTV would have the bandwidth for 200 national HDs if they went to Dish level bandwidth. As a person who likes Dish's HD quality, that would be fine with me. And if they then actually offered 150 national HD channels (taking out 50 they would probably need for RSNs, PPV, and other sports programming), there would then be a good chance some more eclectic choices would make the cut and that would make me a more likely DirecTV sub (provided prices were competitive).

    I have a 32" LCD. I will probably never have anything larger than 42". Most fit into that category, and for us, Dish PQ is fine. I'll go with the service serving the masses with better options, not the one catering to the 60"+ plasmas or 100"+ projectors who need top PQ, or for those that are probably sitting too close to their TVs and notice the slightest issue.
     
  7. paulman182

    paulman182 Hall Of Fame

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    Taking this idea to its logical outcome would return everything to SD and give DirecTV the capacity for 1000 channels or so!

    I think it is great that DirecTV still cares about HD PQ, even though my biggest TV is a 720p RPTV set. Motion artifacts caused by bitstarving would show up on just about any HDTV.
     
  8. Jeremy W

    Jeremy W Hall Of Fame

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    DirecTV has positioned themselves as the premium service, so they're trying to get the premium customers. And just FYI, I have a 56" 1080p TV, and I sit at the recommended viewing distance, and I can still notice the slightest PQ issues. ;)
     
  9. LameLefty

    LameLefty I used to be a rocket scientist

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    You know, it's not just bit-starving that costs PQ. Encoder settings by the locals and/or in Directv's transcoding system have HUGE impacts. For instance, for almost two years, my CBS local has had RAZOR sharp 1080i HD. I mean, you could almost pick the stubble hairs out of an actor's face. But they also had the worst case of the "Brrrraap!"/"Woody Woodpecker" issues (recently ID'd by some video types here as MPEG4 encoder resets) due to some weird kind of incompatibility or something. I could not watch an hour of CSI, for instance, without at least a half dozen audio dropouts, "Brrraps!" and very often macroblocking or picture breakups. And then, about three weeks ago, it all just . . . stopped. I have noticed maybe three very small audio glitches at all, no dropouts and no picture breakups since then. But PQ is noticeably softer. It still looks great, but sharpness is down.

    Oh, and I also have a 56" 1080p set and sit as close as I can! :lol:
     
  10. HDRoberts

    HDRoberts Godfather

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    Except there isn't 1000 national channels. And it will be a long time before we see that many. And Dish HD quality is certainly leaps and bounds above SD.

    Also, there definition of "bitstarving" is very subjective. Yeah, some issues are noticeable on any TV. But downrezzing is only noticeable on large TVs.

    In the future, I don;t want to lose the chance to watch, say, Outdoor Channel HD in reasonable quality, just because others want ESPN in top quality.
     
  11. Jeremy W

    Jeremy W Hall Of Fame

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    DirecTV went down that path before, and they were absolutely eviscerated by the HD community. There were lawsuits filed against them. I really don't think they're going to go down that road again, and they really shouldn't. We didn't go out and buy top quality TVs and subscibe to the best HD provider in order to get a mediocre quality picture.
     
  12. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    I can notice Pic quality differences on a 30" with ease, yes including and especially down resing... I completely disagree with your assumption that you can ONLY notice these things on larger tv's.. I'd say most people are that way, but not ALL...

    There aren't enough additional channels out there today that ARE broadcasting in HD that DIrectv isn't carrying for them to even consider bit starving to add more hd channels... especially when they know they will be able to broadcast those channels soon enough in full res... and they could have more today, if the contracts where finished... and generally, if its an esoterc channel, they tend to either switch quickly, or take forever, and I think we are at the point now, that if its not a new station coming on, then it may be a while for some of the lesser known channels to make the switch unless they are owned by a big company, like universal...

    And 1080P won't take any more bandwidth than 1080i... In fact, an argument could be made that it could take less....
     
  13. HDRoberts

    HDRoberts Godfather

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    1080p24 and 1080p30 will be equal or less then 1080i60, but not 1080p60.

    Videophiles are a small portion of the market. I notice small picture issues, but I don't care about most of them. I want a perfect picture, but not if that means sacrificing channels I want to watch.

    And there is a lot of HD out there DirecTV (and Dish) can add. DirecTV has space for 22 more, and there are more than 22 out there.
     
  14. LameLefty

    LameLefty I used to be a rocket scientist

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    Other than a handful of premiums (about 5 or so), plus AMC, I don't care about the rest. I think the majority of customers are in the same boat or we'd be leaving in droves.

    Let's face it, we Directv subs were spoiled beyond belief after D10 last year. During a span of a few months we got well over 70 HD channels just like that, with more continuing to trickle in regularly since then. That was unheard of in the TV provider industry. Now we just want more, More, MORE! with little regard to whether the channels even have HD content worth watching. Do I want more too? Sure, but for me, most of my key programming is already HD.

    As noted above, I want a few more premiums in HD, notably HBO Signature and AMC. Anything more, for me, is just gravy. I also hope Directv has room for a notional SEC HD channel, rumored to be in the works when the conference's TV deal expires in a year or so. I also hope there's room for NASA HD if/when that happens. But those are just idle wishes. My core programming wants are covered.
     
  15. hdtvfan0001

    hdtvfan0001 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    I also think you'll see further "cleanup" and bandwidth adjustments prior to D12 getting launched next year. Somewhere between now and then.....look for the "70's) channel range to go away....now that they have been migrated to MPEG4 anyway.
     
  16. BattleZone

    BattleZone Hall Of Fame

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    This week, I got do so something I've always wanted to do: compare DirecTV HD and Dish HD on the same TV. And it was a good one: a new Panasonic 58" plasma (58PZ850).

    The customer already had DirecTV and was adding Dish's HD-only package. We were able to compare several shows, including the Matrix on Encore(?).

    DirecTV's HD wasn't perfect, but it was damn good most of the time. Some of the scenes in the Matrix, especially when they are in "real life" in their ship in the tunnels, are very difficult to compress. You could definitely see some macroblocking in these scenes, which look much better in Blu-Ray.

    Dish's HD was noticably worse, though. The same scene turned into a big blur for seconds at a time. There were 5 people in the room, and no one had any trouble seeing the difference. I haven't checked to see if Encore is still MPEG2 on Dish, but regardless, it was badly bitstarved in those scenes.

    In static scenes, there wasn't much of a difference, but colors looked a bit duller on Dish in a few scenes, with blues and greens not being as vibrant. That could possibly have been a setting difference between the HDMI inputs, so take that with a grain of salt.

    I only had 10 or 15 minutes to compare, but I do know this: if DirecTV were to compress further, it would be noticable, and definitely not desirable. Let's all support BSS and more usable bandwidth!
     
  17. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Directv will never do 1080p60, so thats not a comparison to make... (hardware won't do it, and also, can you show me what programs are shot and transmitted by any broadcaster in true 1080p60?) They will only do 1080p/24... and before you go and say thats not really different than 1080i60, it is... And for me, its huge as well... any time you start repeating frames to make a picture its not as good as the original...

    I predict we will see 1080p24 CHANNELS on DIrectv within 3 to 6 months... and more than just 1 or 2..

    And you DO NOT need to be a videofile to see those differences on a 50" and larger tv (as pointed out by the last poster), which I would be willing to bet the majority of consumers of Directv that have an HD DVR have... SO they would all notice... Just because its better doesn't mean its ok... It should be full hd... Frankly, Dish is screwing their customers IMHO, although some of that was neccessary at this point because of the loss of AMC-14. If they decrease the compression once they get a replacement up for that sat, then I will accept that as being a disaster fix, so to speak, but it should not be a long term fix...

    And you just said, they can add more now with out doing anything.. so why on earth would you advocate hurting pic quality when they aren't even at a point where its needed... Like I said before, we are now at the point, where adding more hd channels will come in only trickles, rather than mass additions, (except LIL's) so there is no rush to add more channels... They have the majority of channels that make the masses happy, so the law of diminishing returns is starting to take affect as well.. For every channel they add now, the amount of people that will be pleased by said channel will be smaller and smaller because of the other choices already out there, so while I would love for them to make every channel HD, the reality is that they can't make everyone happy no matter what they do, so the key thing they need to make sure they do now is not make current selection degraded angering the people who are already happy, to make a small amount of people happy (maybe)... They must tread lightly, and add channels without hurting the exisiting ones, or they will have BIGGER issues than a few people being unhappy with not having one or two channels.. And how many of those other channels Directv doesn't carry run 24/7 HD content and would have more viewers than any of the core stations already up in HD... HBOs maybe, but I'd say that 85% of the programing on the missing channels can be watched at some point in HD on the channels they do have in HD, at some point.. The easiest way around that issue for the short term would be for them to add HBO on demand... Frankly, I wish they could add all the missing channels in On Demand, then they could really take there time adding actual channels because you'd still be able to get the HD programs...

    I believe that Directv can easily add another 15 HD channels, and truly offer almost all HD channels that have most of their programing in HD...
     
  18. HDRoberts

    HDRoberts Godfather

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    First, I bet the median HD set is less than 46", not over 50".

    Second, I was speaking of the future. I think eventually we will see content filmed in 1080p60, even if not now. Live content such as sports and documentaries could easily support this. Films will be 1080p24, but that is only a portion of the programming.

    Third, I certainly don't feel screwed as a Dish customer by PQ. I fell screwed by the (relative) lack of channels. (And before you tell me to join DirecTV, they don't have them either, and it is unlikely they will get them all in the next 5 years if they don't compress more). Yes, they can add SOME more, but by then end of next year, there will be OVER 200 national HD stations available, especially if you count all of Direct's sports packs. Thus, some of us are going to be missing a channel we want even with D12.

    Encore is MPEG4 on Dish. However, I'm pretty sure DirecTV doesn't even carry Encore HD yet. Could have been HBO or Showtime, the main channels of which are still MPEG2. They will be going away Dec. 1.

    I gotta avoid this board more. Too many Kool-aid drinkers.

    I just want a competitively priced provider that will have all the HD I will want (with a good DVR so I can enjoy it). Looks like here in Cleveland, that provider will not exist. It isn't Dish or DirecTV .

    Please remember my original comment: I though DirecTV was stupid for not keeping the Slimline 5 as the only HD Dish as that would get them a bunch of Ku HD capacity to add more channels. Thus, we could more easily get what we want, you top quality HD, me more choices.
     
  19. hdtvfan0001

    hdtvfan0001 Well-Known Member

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    From what I've read...you're right...the "average HD set" now sold is 42", but expected to increase in 2009 up to either 46 or 50", as costs keep coming down on the larger units.
    I don't see how.....there are not that many individual channels actually broadcasting content in HD and won't be as of the time D12 is live. Yes, there are the sports and other packs, but those tend to be leveraged over PPV and other bandwidth. In addition, when the MPEG-2 content bandwidth goes away some time in 2009, that will add to capacity even further.

    What I do agree with you on for sure is that even with 200+ channels... somebody's gonna still want something that isn't there someplace.
     
  20. evan_s

    evan_s Hall Of Fame

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    I have a simple questions. Correct me if I'm wrong but Dish's eastern and western archs only have 3 orbital slots correct? This has to provide not only all their HD but also all their SD content correct? What is their plan to deal with the type of capacity you say DirecTV won't be able to handle?
     

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