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OK, so what is fast/slow to you?

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by veryoldschool, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. Mike Greer

    Mike Greer Hall Of Fame

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    For the most part my HR24s respond within 1-2 seconds but as quick as that sounds it is pretty slow when navigating around.

    Channel change time is pretty slow but since I rarely channel surf I don't notice it much.

    Usually I'm ok with the 'speed' of the HR24s although they are clearly not as quick as I'd like or as quick as Dish Network receivers. The HR21/22/23 on the other hand will never be allowed in my house! Those are 'unacceptably' slow.

    I'd be willing to accept 'something in my setup' but it's not all that complicated and several neighbors, BestBuy and a couple of local dealers don't have any faster response than I do. I'm pretty sure that the difference between my setup and your setup speed is me and you. You're probably much more patient than I am.... I would however volunteer to test your HR44 for 6 or 7 months at my house. Do you need my address for FedEx?
     
  2. harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    This begs the question of whether the receiver or the TV (or HDMI itself) is the culprit.

    I'd lean towards the TV being the laggard, but it would be interesting to see data points from some other TVs and to see how having switchgear (relay and active) in the middle impacts the results.
     
  3. carillon

    carillon Legend

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    Quicktune is SLOW on the Genie 2.5 seconds to display seems like an eternity. More like Slowtune compared to my HR24-500.
     
  4. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    I'd like to stay in this discussion. I don't have any speed problems. I know what each model can do and don't expect any more than that from them.

    I don't channel surf and haven't since I joined D* in 2002. Didn't do much of it before that either.

    I have three cars with very different engines in each of them. I don't expect my 4 cylinder car to be as fast as my 6 cylinder car which I don't expect to be as fast as the car with the V8 in it. And I drive them appropriately.

    In my mind, a BD player is excessively slow, but I know most of them are and don't expect a speedy experience when I use one.

    I think speed is subjective. With electronics you get what you get. That said, I've got 12 of the fastest models of HRs in my home. How folks put up with any 21 series HR is beyond me.

    Rich
     
  5. Richierich

    Richierich Hall Of Fame

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    Who Needs 12 DVRs??? :lol:

    I got rid of my HR21 and got all HR24-500s except for 2 HR23-700s which may be Replaced by an HR44. :)
     
  6. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    Does sound kinda nutty, doesn't it? Happened so fast I thought they were breeding. But I've got 12 HRs that work well and if they fail, they fail. I suspect I'll be down to 8 on MRV and two backups before long. Of course I suspected that I'd be using the 6 I bought for replacements when I bought the 6 owned HRs a couple years ago out of frustration with D*'s replacements. Who knew the damn things were gonna stabilize at that time?.... :lol:

    Rich
     
  7. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    Well, let's see. My math could be off. For 1080i30 there are 30 (29.97) frames per second, and if the GOP can be 200 frames, I guess that would be about ~6 2/3 seconds between I frames, assuming the GOP has but one I frame. That would make the average access time ~3 1/3 seconds, not counting other latency. But it could be as long as 6 2/3 if you access just after the I frame goes by, not including other latency. This is just decoder latency based on when the I frame occurs, and there is probably more latency there as there is a buffer that must be filled to a certain level for consistent decoding.

    If you are using HDMI, that adds even more latency, and especially if there is a pixel map format change involved (such as native on and going from ESPN at 720 to CBS at 1080), but as I discussed, the rumor is that DTV adds an I frame every second or so to carve that first ~3 1/3 seconds down to ~1/2 a second on average.

    Latency is everywhere; a signal leaving the Master Control switcher of a TV station might see as much as 10 seconds of latency in the picture before you see it over DBS in your living room (so even "live" isn't really "live"). But latency is only important in reference; just because you might receive the picture 10 seconds or more after it is encoded for broadcast isn't problematic because when it was encoded is transparent to the viewer and unimportant. But if the reference is to the time you pressed a button and it takes 3 or 4 seconds to respond, then that is problematic.
     
  8. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    I don't think any of us can disagree with that. But the ironic thing is that old analog cable boxes from the 90's could change channels as fast as you could press the button. Digital is "progress" in many ways, but not as far as latency goes.

    My mother watches NBA on DTV HD and listens on AM radio, which means that the announcer can scream "3-pointer" while the ball is stll being dribbled by the shooter. Drives her insane.
     
  9. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It wouldn't be the first time mine was off either. :lol:
    My tune times are very repeatable.
    I set two channels and then use the previous [or jump on the TV] to bounce between the two.
    I press and start counting until the image displays.
    The Sony TV through its antenna is one thousand two.
    My HR24 with component only varied from one thousand two thousand to one thousand two thousand three.
    Native on/off and SD to HD, HD 720p to 1080i, all gave the same results.

    I have no idea of how many I frames are being used, but the tune results seem constant, once I remove the HDMI resolution change lag.

    As for "latency", I get sort of a kick out having to cycle the Sony's input between OTA, a receiver, and a DVR, since part of the dialog will repeat three times if they're all on the same channel and I start with OTA, then a non DVR, and end with a DVR.
     
  10. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    1080i has the frame rate Tom mentioned. 29.7. The rest of them, I don't know.

    Rich
     
  11. acostapimps

    acostapimps Hall Of Famer

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    Whenever there are delay issues with channel changing or menu/guide what I do is flip channels really fast to essentially "wake up" your DVR and also browse the guide really quick, anything to get that blue light blinking really quick and it almost always works.
     
  12. Gone Coastal

    Gone Coastal New Member

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    I just switched from Dish to Direct and going from the 722 to the HR34 has really taken some patience. It's simply unacceptable on any level that I press a button on the remote and 2-3 seconds later the action happens. Opening the guide, going to the recorded shows list, and having the channel pop up is tolerable but browsing the guide is just horrendous. Simply a terrible product from a company that has been doing this for this long.

    The 722 was FAST. Button presses were instant in the guide and when skipping ahead 30 seconds through recorded shows.
     
  13. jimmie57

    jimmie57 Hall Of Fame

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    Have you turned off the Scrolling Effects ?
    Menu, Settings, Display, Preferences set the Scrolling Effects to OFF
     
  14. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I suspect you'll see some improvement with firmware updates, but "instant" doesn't seem to be an option.
     
  15. Jerry_K

    Jerry_K Godfather

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    Mike Greer summed it up pretty nicely. I would add that having to key in a new channel twice before it tunes is SLOW. Both the 24 and 34 have this bug. Never changes on the first input but always changes on the second input.

    Fast really were the TiVo's both DirecTiVo and Series 3 Tivo. Dish is slow compared to TiVo and DTV is just plain tedious.
     
  16. jones_hdtv

    jones_hdtv AllStar

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    That may help a little bit....BUT it will not compare to the DISH Dvrs...Period
     
  17. RACJ2

    RACJ2 Hall Of Fame

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    Wait until you get an update with issues. With delays of 10+ seconds, you'll be happy when you get 2 seconds back.
     
  18. Mike Greer

    Mike Greer Hall Of Fame

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    Welcome to DirecTVland - things are a bit slower here.:)

    When I switched from Dish about 6 years ago I was shocked to find how slow DirecTV DVRs responded.... I was told that new firmware was coming soon and things like 'My DVR isn't slow - must be your setup' etc.. over and over. Fact is DirecTV doesn't put 'speed' high on the priority list. When I finally sent my original HR22s back (I paid $600 to get rid of them) they were just as slow and non-responsive 5 years later as the day they were installed.

    The HR24s are as fast as it gets with DirecTV and even those used to be faster before firmware 'upgrades' slowed them down a bit with the HDGUI. When the HDGUI first came out my HR24s slowed drastically - now things are better but still not as fast as they used to be.

    Bottom line is unless DirecTV suddenly decides to change things (and they haven't for the 6 years I've been here) you just have to adjust to navigating slower than you're used to. Easier said than done - I still cuss my HR24 here and there and am jealous of friends and family that have Dish Network DVRs.

    I haven't personally seen the HR34 but from what I've read it is somewhere between the HR21/22/23 and the HR24 in speed - and that to me is not fast enough but not likely to improve.... Sadly...

    The HR44 is rumored to be 'fast' but until it is widely available and enough people have used it for a bit the jury is still out. Who knows - maybe the HR44 will be the turning point and Dish Network speed will become the norm for DirecTV too.


    Happy TV watching... Albeit slower with your new Genie!
     
  19. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    You don't even want to see the clients. :nono:
     
  20. TomCat

    TomCat Broadcast Engineer

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    I assume he was speaking about GOP structure; how many in the GOP. The frame rate of 1080i is actually 29.97, which is a legacy holdover from NTSC in 1953; they lowered it from 30 to make it a submultiple of the 3.58 MHz chroma subcarrier that was tacked on when they added color. Still with us 60 years later, and was here decades before the concept of GOP was even a gleam in some Engineer's eye. :grin:

    720p is 59.94 for that same reason. One wonders if this means more I frames in 720p per second than in 1080i, because if they have the same GOP structure, then twice as many GOPs stream through in the same amount of time. Of couse even if there were, it could also mean they still only add 1 per second to speed up acquisition, which would tend to level any differences out.

    The thing is this: you do what you are capable of, and you don't do what you're not capable of. DTV Engineers, and I use the term lightly, are absolutely incapable of designing in the speed that DISH Engineers seem to have perfected, which is pretty maddening, because there are still enough arguments to make DTV a better choice, in the opinion of many. Even if they knew the secret sauce recipe, it is likely that the legacy design of the DVR+ can't really be changed all that much and they have effectively painted themselves into a corner.

    Of course I still contend that much of the sluggishness comes from piling on bloatware crap-apps that are of questionable value and potentially a threat to speed and stability. Rip out those "features" that I never wanted nor asked for, and give me a basic DVR that performs at a reasonable snappiness with reasonable reliability (that last issue the problem DISH Engineers seem to have trouble with).
     

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