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Police: 13 dead; 58 injured in Colorado theater shooting

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Unknown, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

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    Unless they've taken the time to clean the guns you most certainly can tell which one was fired more recently.

    No, you quoted from two separate posts with in the thread. Not the same single post in the thread.

    Again, don't tell me how to post.
     
  2. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Please take the personal comments about each other to PM.

    Thanks!
     
  3. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    DNA is just one piece of evidence, along with anything else that can be used. There is nothing inherently reliable or unreliable about DNA, or fingerprints, or eyewitness testimony. Take each piece of evidence for what it is worth. But the "freshness" of DNA, if such a thing can be determined, will only tell if the DNA is complete or partially deteriorated. It will not tell when the DNA was placed in the location. Neither the presence nor the absence of DNA, in and of itself, proves anything. How does it fit into the entire case is the issue.

    And remember how everyone likes to say circumstantial evidence is unreliable. Well, DNA is circumstantial evidence. It is a fact from which another fact must be inferred.

    I saw the suspect opening the door is direct evidence.

    I found the suspect's DNA on the doorknob is circumstantial evidence that the suspect touched the doorknob/opened the door.

    So things are neither as simple nor as complex as people are trying to make them sound on this board.
     
  4. runner861

    runner861 Icon

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    You're joking, right? Have you read the Patriot Act? The warrantless phone taps you are talking about are calls where at least one party is outside the US. If there are any wiretaps without a warrant going on inside the US, it will be for intelligence purposes only. The evidence will not be admissible in court, and the government would never use such evidence and expose the operation just to prevent a possible domestic shooting.

    I don't know of any legal searching that can be done online without a search warrant that would have exposed his purchases. I think you have been watching too much Law and Order or CSI or the new Hawaii Five-O. If the cops really did what you see on those shows, they would be in jail. Actually, the technology for a lot of what they do on those shows simply does not exist or is not implemented.

    As far as a security guard at the theater stopping this event, that is as much pure fantasy as the statements by some that a guy who was legally strapped would have stopped it. You are assuming that a security guard would have seen the suspect opening the door at the back of the theater, then, instead of closing the door or telling the suspect to leave, the guard would have left his post and gone out to the suspect's car and found the weapons, then would have somehow been able to take control of the suspect, then would have contacted police, who would have arrested the suspect, then obtained a warrant for his apartment, etc. This happens on TV shows, not in the real world.
     
  5. armophob

    armophob Difficulty Concen........

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    And this is why I asked for a second vote. We are dancing around something that is wrong. And digging up other things that belong in there own threads

    Please acknowledge a second to the vote so that these topics may get separated by moderators.
     
  6. Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

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    I dont see anything wrong with a free for all topic in forum dedicated to free for alls. I figure as long as people are bringing up valid points and counterpoints...the thread evolved just like a conversation would in person. Do we really need Mom to send us to the corner?
     
  7. Davenlr

    Davenlr Geek til I die

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    I have to wonder if he planned for his apartment to blow up at midnight (when the music started playing), or a neighbor or police raid the apartment due to the loud music, setting off a diversion for his rampage. I really dont think he expected the police to show up en mass in 90 seconds.

    Just think of the results had the police took 5 or 10 minutes to get there, which would be a fairly normal response time for them at shift change around here...
     
  8. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    This forum is NOT dedicated to free for alls. We don't have a free for all forum at DBSTalk.

    The OT forum is for topics that do not fit in elsewhere but it still falls under the forum rules.

    This thread should be about the shooting ... with some drift but focused around the shooting. If some want to drift into another thread (as long as it fits within the forum rules) fine.

    If anyone wants the thread closed the best way to vote for that is to stop participating. Threads without posts die. Please ... no more off topic posts about the desire to see the end of the thread. If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM.

    Now ... :backtotop ... the shooting in Aurora.
     
  9. RunnerFL

    RunnerFL Well-Known Member

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    One of the victims is saying the AR-15 jammed and he didn't get 100 rounds off. No idea how many he did get off but may make the 100 round clip debate moot if he did that much damage with only the standard amount of ammo or less.
     
  10. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Updated the title. Let's hope we don't have to update it again.

    Peace,
    Tom
     
  11. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Have you? I admittedly haven't, but... I've read a lot about it that so far hasn't been denied by anyone.

    You never heard of Carnivore?

    Patriot Act Opens ISPs to Monitoring (from 2001)

    "Under the newly enacted Patriot Act of 2001, ISPs and network administrators may give law enforcement agents access to their networks without a warrant in order to track hacker activities."

    Government Increasingly Turning to Data Mining (2006)

    "Companies keep an increasing amount of data about everyone -- tracking their buying, travel, bank transactions and bill-paying habits. Data mining uses mathematical formulas to look for patterns in those behaviors. The results could enable the grocery store to send out targeted coupons, or, in theory, help the government decide how likely it may be that someone is linked to terrorist groups."

    I was incomplete in my earlier statement... The government appears to be using a combination of ISP monitoring when they perceive serious threats already AND purchasing info from data mining companies to help predict threats.

    The point still remains, though, that IF the efforts and money spent aren't catching a guy like this in advance... where is the money going?

    Nope. Two different things. Once the guy was in riot gear, armed to the teeth, and in the dark theater spreading gas cannisters... it would have been dangerous for someone to try and shoot him.

    BUT the security guard at the exit would have had the opportunity to detain him before he became armed and protected by riot gear.

    Yes... I mean, if the guard is doing his job, how could be not see a guy exiting? Also, the security guard should also be provided with the movie schedule... so a guy leaving the exit like that at the start of the movie should be more suspicious than someone leaving at the end of the show.

    First, it would be fair to ask why he was leaving when the movie had just started... since leaving via exit (as opposed to going back to the lobby for snacks or bathroom break) implies you are done inside the theater. Why pay for a ticket and then leave before the movie is barely started? That makes no logical sense, and should be a point of interest for the security guard stationed outside.

    Next, he should have taken additional notice that the guy was attempting to prop open the door! There's ZERO reason for a theater goer to be exiting and trying to circumvent security by propping the exit door open!

    Now we're getting murky... The guard should have detained the man IF he was suspicious OR asked him to leave. IF asked to leave, the guard should have watched the man going to his car (from his post) and ensured that the guy got into his car and left.

    At that point he should have been able to either see the guy drive away OR see him coming back in riot gear with weapons... and immediately called for help AND went inside the theater himself and secured the exit from inside.

    Apparently TV show cops do a better job than security guards in the world you live in.

    IF the guard isn't looking for suspicious behavior (like exiting at the start of a movie and trying to prop open the door) he is useless. IF the guard wasn't capable of detaining a single unarmed man, he is useless. IF he couldn't watch and see that the kid didn't leave, but instead came back armed and couldn't call for help and get inside the theater... well, he might not be useless, but pretty close.

    I didn't say hire Barney Fife at 75 years old... I assumed that a qualified security guard (or guards) would be hired. Obviously you have to hire qualified security in the same way that you install locks on your doors instead of using twist-ties to keep people out. I thought that went without saying.

    In this economy, and with all the veterans we have in this country... I have to think there is a wealth of capable and qualified candidates for security officer jobs.

    IF we can't secure a movie theater from a guy like this in the future (note I'm not blaming the theater for this because they weren't prepared)... but if we can't prevent this the next time, then seriously what hope is there of preventing terrorist attacks?
     
  12. Tom Robertson

    Tom Robertson Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Someone leaving a theatre early isn't too suspicious, people leave early all the time for many varied reasons.

    Someone propping the door, on the other hand, is likely doing something they shouldn't. (Most likely trying to let others in who haven't paid.)

    Someone coming back with geat, guns, etc. needs to be stopped.

    But back to reality.

    The theatres can't afford security of this level for every showing. It costs too much, even for Barney Fife staffing. We've had one event of this type in theatres in 50 years. Theatres might consider better security technology that would track people coming in rather than people going out; but they just cain't put guards at every grouping of doors.

    Peace,
    Tom
     
  13. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    Such shows don't traumatize or scare half to death kids. The Dark Knight Rises most likely would do that to a 6-year-old child.
     
  14. armophob

    armophob Difficulty Concen........

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    Dude way back when I was a kid, I mean way way back, that was our game. we would jam the exit doors with paper and watch all the movies that day
     
  15. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    Then STAY HOME and take the kids to a matinee showing or similar showing when you CAN get a babysitter, not some midnight showing of a violent movie!
     
  16. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    You are incorrect. It's not semantics. SCOTUS didn't change its meaning. The Court had never ruled on what exactly the 2nd Amendment meant until D.C. v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago. Therefore, it changed nothing. It simply told people what most already knew.
     
  17. armophob

    armophob Difficulty Concen........

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    Maybe the big clue was when he danced in throwing gas canisters and then started shooting

    He played it well and the signs were not there for terror until it was too late
     
  18. armophob

    armophob Difficulty Concen........

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    I third that vote
     
  19. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I get that security costs money... but I'll say this... It only takes a couple of events like this before people stop going to the movie theater. That specific movie theater, the chain of similar-ownership ones, and then theaters in general... IF they don't take visible steps to enhance security and prove that they are trying to prevent this... movie theaters could go the way of the Dodo.

    Consider 9/11 and the effect it had on airline travel. People were scared to travel for a while... some had to for their jobs OR to visit people they wanted to see... and some normalcy has been established BUT two things:

    1. Airline traffic is not what it would have been IF 9/11 had not happened.
    2. Airports did enhance security, which did cost money.

    IF the airports didn't make efforts to show they are willing to spend money on your safety, you can bet there wouldn't have been as much of a rebound.

    Then consider... for many, air travel is not just "fun" but a part of life and a part of their job...

    Movies are a luxury item. People like movies... but with Blu-ray and Satellite/cable and streaming and all that good stuff you can have in high quality in your home...

    It wouldn't take much to nudge people towards staying home and feeling safer (and also incidentally saving money) rather than venture out to a movie theater.

    That is a risk the movie theaters and producers simply can't take... the risk that people might start to perceive the theater as a risk...

    So I say again... the industry can't afford not to increase security.

    Sure, people are willing to argue against it today... but ask yourself, if you are saying security costs too much and is unnecessary... at what point (if the unthinkable happens a 2nd time or a 3rd time) would you re-think your movie-going plans?

    Now realize Warner and all the other studios are asking themselves this very thing right now, all weekend... I know Warner and others have withheld box office reporting this weekend. Conspiracy theorists might argue that they are withholding those numbers so people don't know just how this one event impacted the weekend box office take. How many around the country saw this and stayed home instead of seeing a movie?
     
  20. armophob

    armophob Difficulty Concen........

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    I am gonna piss off a bunch of people, but we lost the war on terror.
    Consume and accept it and now lets move on in it's wake

    We now live and breathe the air it consumes us with. We used to be able to picture it as a foreign thing that we could spare our innocence from, but no, not now, it is here and it is time we wake our kids to its influence every day.
     

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