BG I've been with DTV since 2007. I got them through a package when I first signed up with my phone service. I HAD an R15 and another SD box. After 10 years of ownership, I finally got a chance to upgrade my SD tube set. It seemed like a good time to upgrade my DTV equipment as well, considering how crap SD looks on an HD set. I've been out of contract for 3 years. In the 5 years I've been with DTV, I've not asked them for any other upgrades or price credits. end BG The week of Thanksgiving I called in to DTV's service line to see if anything could be done to upgrade my flakey R15 and get into an HD setup. I didn't really go in expecting much, just hopeful in getting upgraded without getting dinged too badly. The phone rep and I walked through what I wanted (whole home DVR, HD, DVR). It turns out, I got all of that and a new Dish (SWM) for no increase in my bill. Well, excepting the 10/mo HD charge. I got a 15/mo credit for a year to off set that. I thought I got a good deal, until my other half let it be known what she ACTUALLY wanted from the new system. She said she wanted to be able to watch shows in any room. That tells my "whole home DVR". What we wanted in reality was the ability to record HBO/Showtime stuffs in the bedroom AND be able to view things from the living room in the bedroom. That, actually means two DVRs. Well frick. None of this was made clear to me until after the installers came in and were done. In order to get the new equipment to me, I had to pay a $20 shipping and handling charge. Ok, fine, so be it. Except the equipment wasn't shipped to me. It was shipped to the tech doing the dish install. That, just seems really odd to me. It seems to leave a fair amount of "Bad Things" to enter the equation. Another odd thing. I noticed a fair amount of scratching on the front of the HR-24. It came out of a sealed box in plastic, so I figured maybe something happened during shipping. Today I tore apart my entertainment area to account for the shift to all things HD. The HR24 DTV gave me is a refurbed unit, and THAT's why it's scratched all to hell and back. I'd really like to shift the HR24 to the bedroom, and get an HR34 or another HR24 for the living room. This way, the wife can be happy about recording "not kid safe" shows in a place where they cannot see the titles. The issue? I'm all out of good luck mojo, and DTV wants $200 for an HR24 and $300 for an HR34 at present. So to the questions: Is it normal practice to ship out refurbed units on new equipment installs?? These DVR boxes have always been on the flaky side, and I'm not at all pleased that they gave me a refurb out the gate. Can I use this in any way to come back to DTV and barter down the price of an HR34 or 24? Yes, I know, I should have researched things better before getting into a new contract. Regardless, I cannot see paying that much money for leased equipment. I expect nothing, don't feel at all entitled, just feeling a bit burned on the refurb bit. What's a reasonable amount of time to wait before I can hope (not expect, HOPE) to get a reasonable price on an HR34? I'm down with $100, but not at $300.