Render Unto Caesar

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Roger, Jul 10, 2005.

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  1. Roger

    Roger Banned User

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    Since I'm doing mostly religious topics tonight I thought I’d bring up a post that I made at another site which I think is very important.

    Somebody somewhere wrote:

    "If the majority of voters voted in laws that only allowed Kosher food, then yes, Christians would abide by the law ("Render unto Caesar what is Caeser's" - Jesus Christ). Christians are to follow the law and be good citizens."

    What? What a perversion on the meaning of that passage. Using your logic... If the citizens voted in a mark that you had to take to be able to buy or sell then you’d have to take it because you and others perverted the meaning of this and will follow government blindly.

    Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Rendering unto Caesar under your definition will cost you your soul.

    In context:

    Mat 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
    Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
    Mat 22:19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
    Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
    Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
    Mat 22:22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

    I am God’s so I will render unto God and only unto God. I will not render anything nor should any Christian render anything unto Caesar.
    This is a huge perversion that many good people will be fooled because the “image of the beast” (modern day churches) preach this crap!

    The translation: Caesar's people will render unto Caesar while God's people will render unto God. It's really simple isn't it? Duh! Read your Bible and the creeps won't be able to fool you.

    Don't let these people steal your soul. "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

    Don't be deceived!
     
  2. ilovedbs

    ilovedbs Legend

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    Thanks. This brings knowlege to many.
     
  3. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    Great post Roger. That's why I disagree with Bush on almost everything, I want to keep my soul. He has obviously sold his. :D :angel:
     
  4. Dave

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    And this is perhaps why some of us disagree with the Dem or Kerry as a whole. They are still rendering unto Caesar. The still don't get the Christian view point of rendering unto God.
     
  5. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    So how does this "rendering unto God" thing work?:scratchin

    Huge tax cuts, massive deficits, unprecedented foreign debt, "pork" by the megaton, wars we have no clue how or whose going to pay for them, and of course record energy prices and obscene profits for oil companies?

    And the neat part is we've passed on the "rendering" to future generations as far out as we can project.

    Gee! God is Great!!!:grin:
     
  6. RichW

    RichW Hall Of Fame/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    More BS. The Bush administration has spent far more than any other and has done so by "borrow and spend".
     
  7. Nick

    Nick Charter Gold Club Member DBSTalk Club

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    The obvious message is: If you render unto God first, then what little remains to be rendered unto Caesar is insignificant with respect to God's commands. One cannot serve two masters.
     
  8. RichW

    RichW Hall Of Fame/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    So would that be Caesar Romeo or Sid Caesar?
     
  9. Nick

    Nick Charter Gold Club Member DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    Harry Caesar, a door-to-door bible salesman from Peoria, and it's Romero, not Romeo.

    Happy to be of help. :)
     
  10. pjmrt

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    Your last line is correct - but the implied tongue-in-cheek attitude is off the mark. But I have to give you high marks for a post that doesn't fill the page :lol: Actually your comments are well thought out, its just a little harder to respond to an essay. But that's off topic.

    God is Great, and greatly to be thanked and praised. We (well some of us anyway) see the handiwork of God and are greatfull. We live in a country founded upon Christian principles and a society that worships God. It is also a country which has prosperity which is the envy of the world, security which is the envy of the world, freedom which is the envy of the world, ... why? Because we're so good? Wrong - we're blest by God. Some liberal preachers might like to put the concept down, but I believe there is plenty of evidence that God blesses His children - and blesses nations that follow His precepts. Nations that reject God, God gives them that freedom and allows them to reap what they sow - and I think we see that in many other nations such as India as one example. But God is Great, and we owe everything we have as a nation and personally to Him. Even the "little stuff" which make life fun. And I haven't even hit on #1 and #2 yet - the Joy and Peace God gives us now and the assurance of eternal life.

    So your question, how does this "rendering unto God/rendering unto Caesar" work? Same as it did 2000 years ago when Jesus said it. We owe everything to God. Even the government and leaders are used by God to accomplish His will - which sometimes is to judge sin. As (saint) Nick [ :) ] said, we serve God. As much as government doesn't contradict that, we go along with the government. The statement arose when Jesus was questioned by Pharisees who were seeking occasion to bring accusation against Him to them people and by the Sadducee's who (essentially loyalists to Herod and hence to Rome) wanted to bring accusation against Him to the governor. Jesus perceived their hypocrisy. Everything belongs to God. The tax was paid (typically) with a Roman coin, which had the image of the ruler (Caesar) on it. But the people had already accepted the use of the coin as a convenience in commerce. So if Caesar protects your civil rights and safety, you probably should pay him tribute (money). But the laws of man do not supercede the laws of God. So we have a higher obligation to obey God.

    As to your other comments about tax cuts, ... etc - I'm not sure where exactly you are going with that. Unless, perhaps, to make my point. Many in this country (including some liberal preachers I suspect) would make our "Caesar", the federal bureaucracy "god". Many look to this false god to solve all our problems, give us food when we don't work, pamper us, give us everything and not demand anything in return. Many want the government to solve the problems of the world. It amazes me how many cry out for the government to throw more money at third world countries and at the same time criticize the government for the money and blood being used to free the people of Iraq. Somehow a free and well fed people are OK with sharing food, but not the freedom that allows one to enjoy the meal.
     
  11. pjmrt

    pjmrt Hall Of Fame

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    was that the salad guy?
     
  12. Nick

    Nick Charter Gold Club Member DBSTalk Club

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    The...
    I told you, Harry Caesar was a bible salesman from Peoria. Please pay attention. :rolleyes:

    :D
     
  13. n8dagr8

    n8dagr8 Resident Rounder DBSTalk Gold Club

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    I believe the book of Daniel also addresses this issue. Daniel lived under the kings rule (who God put in place)without causing too much trouble but still obeyed God.
     
  14. Fen

    Fen New Member

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    Exactly. As long as the law does not counter God's Word, Christians are to obey the law. So, getting back to the original post - no, Christians would not be expected to accept the mark.
     
  15. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    What it boils down to is if you're an American first, or a God-worshipper first. I'm an American first and as long as yours or any others' God(s) don't interfere with that, I guess you could say "God blesses America!"

    Isn't one of the lessons of "render unto Caesar" that the business of God and the business of government should remain separate? Somehow you and many others conflate it to mean religion and government should be intricately and inextricably intwined.:scratchin

    Government should not pass laws or set policy in the interest of religious belief and religion should not base their theology on the interests of government. Whether or not the USA was "founded on Christian principles", the involvement of religion with government was one of the main principles the founders were trying to eliminate. That's why "there shall be no religious test for public office" and the First Amendment forbids Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"! The founders intentionally created a system diametrically opposed to the notion of the divine right of kings(or emperors, caliphs or various potentates) that was the universal norm of the day in which there was essentially no differentiation between government and religion. Why anyone would want to go back to such a system is beyond me.
     
  16. Bogy

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    Actually, I am a Christian first, and then an American. My first allegiance is to God. What I find strange is that I am criticized so often by conservative Christians for doing this. pjmrt made a crack earlier about liberal pastors seeing government as god. Once again he totally misses the mark. My attitude is not about confusing government with god, but a desire to follow the command of God to love and care for others in everything. A desire to see everything work together for the glory of God, and the good of all people, not just Americans, and not just the well off.
     
  17. jonstad

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    And that's fine. But you understand your God and America are both better off if they keep each other at arm's length. What is astounding is that so many don't understand the reason America has such a high level of faith and why religion prospers here in so many incarnations is precisely because government is prohibited BY LAW from interfering with or dictating that faith. It's called freedom, in this case religious freedom!!!
     
  18. djlong

    djlong Hall Of Fame

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    "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

    -Thomas Jefferson, February 10, 1814
     
  19. Bogy

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    I think I have a pretty good handle on that.
     
  20. jonstad

    jonstad Hall Of Fame

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    I know. I see now my post could be interpreted as questioning that.

    To clarify, I believe you DO understand the value of church/state separation, particularly the value to people of faith. What is amazing is the amount of people who don't!
     
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