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Scary News

Discussion in 'The OT' started by -, Mar 22, 2002.

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  1. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    "Rage, you are free to think the KJV is blessed by G-d, but I don't think it is"

    Fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

    "Jews, including Jesus, would consider it heresy to say or think that G-d would lead one into temptation. The Aramaic reads "and let us not be led into temptation".

    I'll have to look into that.

    "Rage, I have read Christian Scriptures extensively, even a version called the "Jewish New Testament". Instead of anger and condemnation I find a theme of love and acceptance and a vision of a way to create a better world"

    Beware of:

    Titus 1
    13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
    14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

    "Rage, you again missed the point and spent a huge amount of time answering the wrong question. The whole wedding inference had nothing to do with the wedding at the end times"

    I was talking about the future Wedding at the endtime. Since I didn't know what Wedding Tony was talking about, I assumed it was this one.

    "Rage, you certainly do prove the point that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I see you are now backing off from your previous position, that the KJV is the perfect and directly delivered word of God. Now you admit it has errors. "

    It's as good as it gets. If anything is dangerous, it's your spirit of antichrist. I never claimed the KJV was directly delivered, I said I believed it was inspired by Him. Geez :rolleyes:

    "Rage, it certainly is interesting to see how you can quote the passage saying that drunkards are among those not acceptable to God, admit you drink to get blasted, that you have not stopped this activity, just cut back, and then go ahead and proclaim your certainty that you are one of the saints, and condemn the rest of us because we don't meet your standards. Fortunately, we don't have to meet Rage's standards, just God's. And God is a whole lot more forgiving and accepting than Rage is. Believe me, I am much happier having God as my judge than Rage. "

    1. I did drink to get blasted and no longer do that. 2. I didn't condemn anybody here. 3. God can send you to hell, I can't.
    4. I have no standards other than what's in the Bible. 5. This is nothing more than a personal attack on me and what I use to do.
    6. If i see that I'm doing something wrong then I try to fix it instead of looking for other text to excuse it.

    Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    All I do is condemn what the Bible condemns, but since you don't like what the Bible states, you look for alternative "versions" and attack me as the messenger. I quote a passage and it's Rage's standard? You're a fruitcake.

    "Rage, I again encourage you to give up your career as a Pharisee, and try being a Christian. It is much more satisfying, and it's actually what Jesus wants."

    LOL. That's my advice to you, Bogy.
     
  2. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Tony,

    Did I misunderstand what you typed? Were you talking about the wine that Jesus made at a wedding? If so, then sorry for messing that up and responding to something else. I must have missed a post or something.

    You asked something about the Holy Trinity, what were you asking? Or better yet, in what context?
     
  3. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    Mar 23, 2002
    I was commenting on the incompleteness of the Holy Book. As part of that point I asked where in the book the Holy Trinity is defined or even mentioned as the Holy Trinity. This is a cornerstone in any Christian religion, but I do not know where it is mentioned in the KJV of the Bible.

    The comment about the participants in the wedding at Cana was just a musing. I'd read some very interseting interpretations about who was being married at that celebration. I also remember seeing a documentary that touched on this as a possibility as well...I think on A&E. The bride and groom's names were conspicuously missing from the passages, but Mary, the twelve deciples and Jesus' enterage were mentioned.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  4. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    [/FONT] I was commenting on the incompleteness of the Holy Book. As part of that point I asked where in the book the Holy Trinity is defined or even mentioned as the Holy Trinity. This is a cornerstone in any Christian religion, but I do not know where it is mentioned in the KJV of the Bible.

    First, what are you, Tony? A skeptic or something else?

    I don't believe it was ever defined as a Holy Trinity in the Bible. I think man made that assumption. I think Catholics and maybe others think these are three separate entities? I believe It’s ONE God in three different manifestations.

    God is a spirit.

    John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Jesus was the Son of God who was God in the flesh.

    1 Timothy 3
    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    The above is where I assume people came up with the term Holy Trinity? It's one God under three manifestations.

    God (Father) is a spirit who created the earth. Actually it was Jesus but he wasn't known per se during the time of the Jews. He was always up there but wasn't revealed until he was made manifest in the flesh. The Holy Ghost was a comforter to live in man who came in the hearts of men around the time of Jesus.

    So God (Father) was known to the earth first; Jesus was the same God as the Father that came here in the flesh to redeem man. Ditto for the Holy Ghost.

    2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

    To make a long message short :)
    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    The Word is Jesus. And if a religion has them as three different entities then it's a false religion.

    What's your take on it, Tony? Are you trying to condemn the "Holy Trinity" or were you thinking they were one in the same? You're not evil are you?:confused:
     
  5. Bogy

    Bogy Hall Of Fame

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    Mar 23, 2002
    Tony, as Rage so graciously pointed out,(kind of) the word "Trinity" never appears in the KJV of the Bible. I am not aware that it appears in any other version either. Neither is the doctrine of the Trinity spelled out anywhere in the Bible. The closest we get is John's account of Jesus with his disciples in the upper room, when Jesus is giving them some last minute instructions:
    Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    Kind of winds around, but Jesus' message is that he and the Father are one, and the comforter who will be sent is also one with Jesus and the Father, it is Jesus' spirit.
    The other passages which give a clear example of the "Trinitarian Formula" are the commissioning statement given by Rage in the previous post, Matthew 28:19, and the benediction given at the end of the second letter to the Corinthians, 2Co 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"

    These two passages state very clearly the Trinitarian Formula, don't they? Even though Rage will certainly condemn me to an even deeper and more painful level of hell for saying this, there are always questions about these verses at the ends of the books. It would be all to easy for a scribe to add another verse or two to the end of a book to clear up a theological question or two. The early manuscripts don't all have the same endings (which is of course why Rage says they are "less accurate" than the later manuscripts and why the more recent translations of the Bible, using the older manuscripts, are also considered by Rage to be "less accurate" and even satanic). My question is, if Jesus gave the command to baptize using the trinitarian formula as he ascended into heaven, why do all the accounts in Acts of people being baptized state that they were baptized in the name of Jesus, with a few accounts also mentioning that people also received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? The writings of the early church fathers began to define the doctrine very early, but it is not something clearly stated in the Bible.

    I use the Trinitarian formula (or various varients of it) on a regular basis. I feel there is enough evidence in the Bible to describe God in this way. However, I think there are many more than three ways to describe our interrelationship with God. I believe in one God, as do almost all Christians, including Catholics, but I also believe that God is just to big to describe in only one way. We don't believe in "three different entities," we just are struggling to describe the eternal. Not all of us are so blessed as Rage to so easily understand all these complex subjects and make such clear and reasonable sense of them. :lol: :angel:
     
  6. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    there are always questions about these verses at the ends of the books. It would be all to easy for a scribe to add another verse or two to the end of a book to clear up a theological question or two. The early manuscripts don't all have the same endings (which is of course why Rage says they are "less accurate" than the later manuscripts and why the more recent translations of the Bible, using the older manuscripts, are also considered by Rage to be "less accurate" and even satanic).

    Translation: Bogy looks around for other text that pleases him. Why don't you quit the charade and put together your own "bible"? That's what you're doing. The early scripts don't have the same endings because they were either altered, the work of satan, and/or from an apostate church. Just because some of the newer older manuscripts are older in age doesn't mean they are the work of God or a godly church. Satan has been around since day one and apostates and Pharisees have been around as long as the real words of God.

    1Tim 4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
    3: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

    2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
    3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    This describes you whoring around with other text that aren't part of the Holy Bible. What does the Bible state when you add or take away stuff from his word? Yeah, you'll be thrown into the lake of fire with your father the devil, the old serpent.
    Repent Bogy and learn true doctrine before it's too late. And don't give me a line that you're not doing this because you are.
    You just admitted it yourself. Your taking away from the Holy Bible and wanting to add newer older text that's more to your liking.

    Not all of us are so blessed as Rage to so easily understand all these complex subjects and make such clear and reasonable sense of them

    Well it's possible if you seek the truth and Christ decides to show you what it means. But if you have a reprobate mind then it will never be clear. My God is not an author of confusion. It's only confusing to them that have a reprobate mind, or to people who haven't grown enough in Christ and he hasn't revealed it to you yet.
     
  7. ka7yak

    ka7yak Mentor

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    Mar 24, 2002
    The concept of the trinity, a concept abhorrant to Jews, was first described by "Saint" Augustine. The term term and idea was not known before him. It is based on the pagan triad; 3 separate deities.

    It's amazing that the G-d of Abraham and Moses was redefined as a triad, but then man has always created their deities in their own image. Some see the creator as a loving, forgiving, and comforting father and some see him as a monster filled with "rage". :shrug:
     
  8. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Galatians 1
    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
    14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    With the new dispensation of grace coming in, the old Mosaic system is just a mere Jew religion.
     
  9. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Just to set one thing straight. Jesus is loving, kind, and caring. However, his next coming is called the Day of the Lord. He's not coming here to be nice, loving, forgiving. He's coming back to judge the world; he's coming to destroy the unsaved. Don't you people who accuse me of sending an uncaring message know what he's going to do?

    We've been living in grace for 2000 years and it's going to come to an end very soon.

    Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    9: And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

    Rev 16
    1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
    4: And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
    5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    7: And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
    8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
    9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
    12: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
    13: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great

    Hello! You people who think Jesus is just loving and caring better wake the hell up. Jesus will judge sin.

    1Cor6
    9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans1
    22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts,and creeping things.
    24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29: Being filled with all unrighteousness,fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy,murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters,inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


    Hello! What part of this don't you understand? This is not Rage's standard; this isn't Rage's interpretation, this is the word of God in black and white. What good are these so called preachers if they teach love and don't condemn sin? Especially these preachers who are teaching the lie of eternal salvation. This is a lie from the devil. These preachers teach that God loves you no matter what and you'll never lose your salvation once you receive it. Hello! If this was the case then:

    2 Thessalonians 2:3
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    1 Timothy 4:1
    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    If eternal salvation was true then the above couldn't happen.

    So who is really preaching a message of love? A preacher who tells a homo that it's ok, God still loves you which will send their souls to hell, or somebody who tells them to repend and quit sinning so they can inherit the kingdom of Heaven? This so called message of love can be deadly and is a tool of antichrist. I don't want to pick on homo's, but I know of many preachers that tell them this. The same applies to any other of the above mentioned sins in 1 Cor or Romans 1.

    Don't tell me that I don't love people and my Jesus is not filled with love. He is, but he is going to destroy the wicked too. My advice to you is to open the Bible and get right with God. Get out of the 501 (c) (3) non-profit organizations that claim to be Christian churches. Who not only don't condemn homo's or other sins, but they hire them and women as their leaders. The teach from NIV and other new age bibles. And when they don't agree with Holy Bible, then they look for other text that pleases them along with being indoctrinated by seminary and taught crap by so called "scholars". This system will be destroyed and will take your soul with them.

    You can have your loving Jesus who will never condemn people or sin and burn in hell with him. I've warned you and your blood is now on your own hands. And since this sums it up, I won't have anything else to say unless somebody asks a question or something.


    God Bless!
     
  10. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    Mar 23, 2002


    I am a thinking human being that wants things to make sence. I need to see how the words connect to the living God.

    If it makes a difference, I was raised a good Catholic (Jesuit) boy. But since reaching the age where God blessed me with a critical brain, I have been looking for Him where ever I can find Him. I first persued the Catholic faith through classes given the Franciscans, Jesuit, Marian orders. I have gone outside my own faith to attended services (and read litterature from) in Babtist, Southern Babtist, Meathidists, Protestant, Lutheran, Mormon, Jehova Witness, Jewish (reformed), Menonite (my sister-in-law is from a menonite family...interesting wedding combining the Catholic and menonite sects) and Islam. I still consider myself a Catholic and attend masses at the local Parish and drive the pastor crazy with some intersting conversations.

    That is what the Catholic (and other Christian sects) believe. All you have to do is read the "Apostle's Creed" we Catholics recite every week in Mass.

    Anglican version)
    An explanation as to why the word "catholic" is used in the creed even on other religions
    A brief and incomplete history on this creed along with several versions.

    Finally, this is the one that I incorrectly thought was the Apostle's Creed. It's the Nicene Crede
    And the top version on THIS page is what I have recited nearly every week since I've been speaking English.

    But Jesus did speak with his Heavenly Father (himself) on many occasions. Was he talking to himself? or just schitzophrenic? :D No I don't beleive that either. The Holy Trinity was a manifestation to consolidate these three separate entities into one and keep monotheism. It is still something that my mortal mind cannot comprehend.

    God is a spirit.

    John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Jesus was the Son of God who was God in the flesh.


    So who did he talk to when he said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?

    LOL!!! Oh please! You are becoming a charicature! :lol: Anyone who is not confused by conflicting teachings in the Bible and claims to have full understanding will have a halo and hover four feet off the ground and he is assumed whole into heaven!

    Am I evil? I don't think so. I try to live my life within the guidelines that God, Jesus, Buddah, Mohamed and the Holy Mother have asked us to live. But the final judgement is up to God/Jesus (and since I am Catholic, who's decision is given by St. Paul who sits at the pearly gates! :D)

    My whole point was to show you that everything is NOT in the one book. Much of what we take as absolutes is extracted from obscure references and interpretations that can be twisted by different people to mean different things. There are downright cotradictions from one Book to another within the same subject. Only interpretation (which is a human thing subject to error) can straighten out.

    Again, I am not trying to discredit the religion. I AM a Christian. I am trying to expand your views beyond the one-dimensional to the possibility that there may be a different way to see the same God.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  11. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Well... Tony, if you're looking for God, the best place to look is in the Holy Bible. Read it and learn it and God will reveal things to you. The wrong thing to do is jump from one denomination to another because you may be confused by standards and traditions of men. If you read His book He will be pleased and if you learn it then nobody will be able to fool you if you read it long enough to be mature in it.

    But Jesus did speak with his Heavenly Father (himself) on many occasions. Was he talking to himself?

    I believe he was bearing witness to man and giving us examples on how to pray and showing how Holy God is.

    The Holy Trinity was a manifestation to consolidate these three separate entities into one and keep monotheism. It is still something that my mortal mind cannot comprehend.

    But God can give you the wisdom to understand these things that aren't understood by the mortal mind. If you ask Jesus into your heart and seek him by reading his word, he will open this up to you. This will not make sense to minds that are reprobate or even as a babe in Christ. Those that are wise (by Christ) will be able to understand it and be able to see the seasons.

    So who did he talk to when he said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"?

    He was giving (showing) glory to the Father (God) while showing the kindless and love of Himself (Christ). He was living by example. The idiots were killing the Son of God and didn't realize what they were doing so they could get the power back for their organized religion on their watch. They didn't want the Son of God to interfere with their power and their way of doing things.

    Anyone who is not confused by conflicting teachings in the Bible and claims to have full understanding will have a halo and hover four feet off the ground and he is assumed whole into heaven!

    Conflicting? I don't think so. God gave Moses his word directly on Mount Sinai (sp?). Most of the other letters by Paul and the others were just inspired by God. So they could have seen things a little differently than the others and when you translate any book from one language to another there will be some errors. Then as young Christians they could have been error and then made the correction later on. There was one example of this but I can't find it or remember where it was. Anyway, Paul said something like that since he has matured or grown in Christ, all things will be revealed. So he could have made a few mistakes earlier on because of his veiw as a young Christian was wrong like when we are wrong about some things. I heard a small study on this recently but I don' know the correct wording to find it in a search engine.

    My whole point was to show you that everything is NOT in the one book. Much of what we take as absolutes is extracted from obscure references and interpretations that can be twisted by different people to mean different things.

    I disagree. His Word is complete. Nobody can twist His word if you know it. The antichrist will know the Bible and he's going to twist it and the people will be deceived who don't know his word very well. The rapture cult will doom many of these souls to hell because they are already fooled by these false teachings. So these poor souls have at least one stike against them. Instead of learning these words yourself, you appear to be blowing them off because people can twist them or interpret them wrong. Duh! Yes, Tony, so read them yourself. My message is to read them yourself, not believe what I'm saying.

    Again, I am not trying to discredit the religion. I AM a Christian. I am trying to expand your views beyond the one-dimensional to the possibility that there may be a different way to see the same God.

    First, it's a faith not a religion. You should get out of any religion and walk with God. Religion (man-made) is going to lead people to Hell. There is not another way, Tony. Jesus is the only way. If you don't like it then lump it.

    Matthew 7
    13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Your thinking is going to lead you to Hell! You will please the Father by opening up His Holy Bible and reading it. If you seek him He'll take you and will show you the way. All you have to do is seek Him. He doesn't want you to perish. But you have free will and you'll have to overcome the lust of your carnal flesh and mind.
    The flesh and your mind is corrupt by the fall of man. Overcome, Tony.
     
  12. Mark Lamutt

    Mark Lamutt Your Neighborhood Liasion

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    Mar 23, 2002
    Rage,

    What is this rapture cult that you keep referring to? I've never heard of that one.
     
  13. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    Well, I have read and studied the Bible. And it was God gave me a thinking brain and blessed me with the doubt that blessed Thomas. With this intellect that he blessed me with, I have concluded that the KJV of the Bilbe as incoplete and contradictory.

    Ex. 20:13 "You shall not kill."

    Simple enough. But then...

    Ex. 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

    Then there's

    Ex 20:15: "You shall not steal."

    That is very straight forward. However earlier in the same Book God said:

    Ex 3:21: And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and when you go, you shall not go empty,
    22: but each woman shall ask of her neighbor, and of her who sojourns in her house, jewelry of silver and of gold, and clothing, and you shall put them on your sons and on your daughters; thus you shall despoil the Egyptians."

    So it's okay to steal as long as it's from the Egyptians. Or maybe he felt sory and just changed his mind later and made the rule after a change of heart. But wait!

    Luke 19:29: And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples,
    30: Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither.
    31: And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.

    So it's okay to Steel when Got tells you to Steel, I guess. So the Covenant is one-way? Then it can't be a covenant by definition.

    Then there's this little inconsistency:
    Ex 20:4: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"

    However later down at the ranch, God changed his mind again while giving instructions of the building of the Ark of the Covenant:
    Ex 25:18: And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.
    19: Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
    20: The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

    Jesus contadicts himelf. But I guess at the time he was only human:
    Matt 5:22: But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

    Matt 23:16: "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, `If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
    17: You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?"

    I guess that's why Jesus decended into Hell first after dying at the cross? And exactly when was that? John and Mark can't seem to agree.

    There are hundreds of such little inconsistancies that plague this Book. Again, I want to emphasize, I am not attacking the message of the Book. I am stating the obvious. The words in the Bible are not infallable. They were transcribed by men. In the case of the KJV of the Bible THOUSANDS of years after the events and subject to telling and retelling before being committed to papairus or scrolls. What I'm saying is there is no "absolute" in the Bible when it comes to the details.

    As to religion...when you interpret the Word in any way from the pages...THAT is religion. A building and congragation is not needed. So when you espouse your belief or what you "know" to be the truth, you are preaching YOUR religion.

    From the New College Dictionary:
    re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
    n.

    Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
    A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
    A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
    A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

    Notice that it makes no distinction as to whether it is preached or not. You are a religious man by definition. So am I. The difference is that my "religion" allows for the possibility of error. Yours does not.

    And please, before you tell anyone they are going to hell, please keep reminding yourself:
    Matt 7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
    2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    See, you're not the only one that can quote chapter and verse. And if you rather I quote the old English, I can. The meaning is the same.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  14. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Tony: I'll check out your message over the weekend or next week.

    What is this rapture cult that you keep referring to? I've never heard of that one.

    This is a teaching by most if not all TV prophesy teachers and many churches I guess. This would include Hal Lidnsey, Grant Jeffery, Jack Van Impe, and the rest. What they do is twist scripture to make it go along with what a 14 or 15 year-old girl in Europe in the 1800's who got this message while in a trance (yeah, real christian like) which states that the Church (Christians) will be raptured out of this world and won't have to go through the tribulation.

    Here is a post I made back in January on another board: *edited*

    There will be no rapture before the great tribulation. I assume that the people who preach it are false prophets to fool those who are seeking the truth to fall asleep and not see or know what's going on. I'm going to avoid shows or people who preach it.

    Lets take a look at their "strongest" argument for the rapture.

    1 Corinthians, Chapter 15

    51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    When? The last trump which which is the 7th trumpet, so I don't know where this Rapture Cult gets the idea that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. Hogwash!

    1 Thessalonians, Chapter 4

    14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    What trump? 1 Cor 15:52 states the last trump. When does this happen? At the end of the tribulation in Rev. 19. Just before the final battle.

    Rev11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    This applies to the two witnesses when put in context. Some people from the Rapture Cult often quote this verse out of context.

    Matthew 24:
    29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Clearly this is after the tribulation. We are to be collected when he returns which is after or at the end the tribulation.
    We are to be gathered behind Christ sort of like grandstand seats to watch him destroy the armies of the earth.

    Anybody who teaches a pre-trib rapture is a false prophet and they're probably going to mislead you in other areas along the way. They will probably mislead people into worshipping the anti-christ as god. Even if some preachers seem to be 90% correct about stuff and teach this, they're probably setting people up for a fall.

    Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them

    If there was a rapture then there wouldn't be any saints to make war with and prevail over them. Translation: Many Christians will not only be not raptured up, but many will be put to death during the tribulation.

    Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Again no rapture.

    13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    The saints are the body of Christ. The rapture cult say that the tribulation is for the Jews only, Hogwash. *end of edited post*


    Here is a story about it: http://www.christianmediadaily.com/strongdel.htm

    Just type in rapture+cult in a search engine and I bet there will be tons of results.
     
  15. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Well, I have read and studied the Bible. And it was God gave me a thinking brain and blessed me with the doubt that blessed Thomas. With this intellect that he blessed me with, I have concluded that the KJV of the Bilbe as incoplete and contradictory.

    Don’t confuse wisdom with foolishness. God gave you the free will to have wisdom which is the knowledge of his word or the freedom to be a fool. I’m not saying or guessing which one you are because this is not important at the moment to me. The only thing that matters now is this debate.

    The Bible states: 1Co 3:19 for the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

    Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

    Wisdom is a gift from God and nothing from our own works. There is no wisdom in any of our carnal minds.

    As for the KJV being incomplete or contradictory; there is no better version other than the text that was used to translate it.
    You got to understand that there were some translation errors, but the bigger problem is finding English words that best fit the Hebrew words and their meanings. But that isn’t the biggest problem; the biggest problem is your lack of knowledge of his word. A Strong’s Concordance gives you the Hebrew or Greek word and its meaning.

    Visit this site and you can download all the stuff you need to research the Bible: http://www.e-sword.net (Thanks for the link, Bogy) This s/w is killer for being free and will save me more time than I ever imagined doing research.

    Let’s take a look at a huge blunder….

    Luke 14 KJV
    26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14 NIV
    26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.

    Luke 14 NKJV
    26"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

    Luke 14 ASV
    26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    Look at the above, Tony. No version above corrected this blunder. The Greek word is miseo; which in this context means love less.The other versions screwed this up too. The other so called bibles are not any better. Most of the new ones are based on newer older text which is not God’s word IMO. However, I hope that this one error will show you that the KJV isn’t really flawed any more than the new age ones. Take the KJV and the text that was used for it; learn the Greek or Hebrew words and definitions, then nobody can lead you wrong if you read and learn the awesome God’s word. I was wrong when I said KJV version only. Knowing the Hebrew and Greek that it was translated from will give you more of an understanding than I ever imagined. I stand corrected to say the text that was used for the KJV is God’s Holy Bible, not the KJV by itself; and most defitenly not the NIV or any other new “revised” version. Download this s/w, Tony and others.

    Ex. 20:13 "You shall not kill."

    Simple enough. But then...

    Ex. 32:27: And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.


    Ok. First, in the Old Testament times, it was a flesh and blood physical kind of world. The battles of good and evil were fought by the flesh on battlefields or invasions of cities. The Hebrew word is ratsach which means a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).

    In OT times; this did not forbid killing, but murder. In OT times it should read: Thou shall not murder.
    In this context this should be obvious to even the layman. What is meant here is to not to kill (murder) by malice, hate, anger, gain, or sin. God used his people or he did it himself to do away with the unrighteousness back in those days. Back then they had no Savior, so they either had to cover their sins by burnt offerings or you were toast.

    When Jesus came he set a new standard for men. He was the sacrifice for sins which brought in the age of grace. This means you can be as evil as you like until he does away with you himself. This is not to say he hasn’t done away with people through others (kings, armies, weather, natural disaster etc); but he set a new standard which we shall not kill, period, unless it’s self-defense or capitol punishment. Not only should we not kill, we should not have the thought in our hearts or we’re just as guilty as acting it out in the flesh. Grace is a higher standard.

    Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    The same applies to murder which is nothing more than hate.

    Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    So this is the way it is in the NT. The OT was flesh against flesh and when God told his people to kill, it was obviously not a sin and murder. Jesus will do the destroying when he comes back and only he will swing the sword unless you break his law and will die by it.

    This is neither incomplete nor contradictory. The only thing lacking here is your knowledge of His word.

    To be continued……
     
  16. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    Mar 23, 2002
    Rage...The commandment is "Thous Shalt Not Kill". The translations is precise. It does not say "Thou shalt not Murder"

    I can come up with all sorts of interpretations and apologies for the words in the Bible too. Just because there are explanations for the inconsitencies and verses from other chapters to cover the holes left by others doesn't mean the holes aren't there.

    You yourself have already said that the Bible has a "huge blunder" and pointed it out! There ARE incosistencies (whether it be bad translation or whatever) in the Bible! Even you agree! So what is so difficult about admitting that the KJV is not infallable? What is so difficult about allowing for the possibility that other texts help confirm, clarify or even redefine the meaning that only the KJV of the Bible by itself gives?

    That was the whole point of the discussion in the first place. The KJV of the Bilbe is not the end-all of God's words! You even said so. You said you had to go to the original Greek and Aromeic texts to see the "real" meaning of words. You may even have to look at other writings from the same author that are NOT in the Bible to see what he "really" meant in the Holy scripture. And that is my whole point!

    BTW I can speak two languages. I can read 4 (maybe 6 in a pinch) languages. I KNOW how difficult translating the denotations and conotations properly can be. No need of explaining that to me. :)

    Chevy learned this when they introduced the Chevy Nova in the Carribean.
    Nova (english)=Bright star
    No Va(Spanish) Doesn't Go!

    Or GE:
    "We Bring Good Things to Life"
    was translated into thai. The problem was that if you translated that back to English is came out as:
    "We bring your ancestors back from the dead"

    See ya
    Tony
     
  17. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

    1,113
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    Aug 19, 2001
    Tony: Don't respond until I'm done! :)

    I'm busy.

    "Rage...The commandment is "Thous Shalt Not Kill". The translations is precise. It does not say "Thou shalt not Murder"

    Duh! I told you what it meant. God can't make a law then tell people to break it so what I told you is so. It would have been thou shall not murder in OT times. The 1611 version was 1611 or so years after OT times. The KJV was translated during the time of grace.

    I can come up with all sorts of interpretations and apologies for the words in the Bible too. Just because there are explanations for the inconsitencies and verses from other chapters to cover the holes left by others doesn't mean the holes aren't there.

    What holes? You haven't come up with one yet although I didn't get to the rest of yopur previous post.

    The only hole is your lack of knowladge thus far.

    You yourself have already said that the Bible has a "huge blunder" and pointed it out!

    No I didn't. The Bible has no blunders. The only blunder was in the translation of it. You attacked the KJV and I shown that the other versions failed in this verse too. This is the worst case scenario. This isn't par for the course.

    So what is so difficult about admitting that the KJV is not infallable? What is so difficult about allowing for the possibility that other texts help confirm, clarify or even redefine the meaning that only the KJV of the Bible by itself gives?

    Well, because if you read my previous post you would know that the other text is either altered, or the work of satan and/or from an apostate church.

    The KJV of the Bilbe is not the end-all of God's words!

    In the English version, yes it is. The NIV and others sure in the hell are not. This version is the english version inspired by God.
    No doubt about it. I assume you have no idea what kind of power that God used to get the text from the catholic church to make this version? This religion killed everybody who had a Bible not to their liking.

    You said you had to go to the original Greek and Aromeic texts to see the "real" meaning of words. You may even have to look at other writings from the same author that are NOT in the Bible to see what he "really" meant in the Holy scripture. And that is my whole point!

    Not at all. The KJV is enough for anybody to minister from; however, you have to look at the original text to become a good or great teacher of God's word. The original text are probably not needed for the average user of the Holy Bible. I need it because I want to get into some deep studies which most won't do or need.

    The KJV is fine for any lover of God's word. It's the english version that he provided to all of us. I could still easily defeat any skeptic with only the KJV's words. Like I said, it's only good for people like me who want to get into some deep studies and wanting to become a better teacher.

    BTW I can speak two languages. I can read 4 (maybe 6 in a pinch) languages. I KNOW how difficult translating the denotations and conotations properly can be. No need of explaining that to me

    You're ass backwards. It's usually the other way around.

    I'll address the rest of your other post next week.
     
  18. TNGTony

    TNGTony Hall Of Fame

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    I'm finished discussing this. You need not continue to persuade me. As I cannot persuade you with even your own argument. The big difference is that you know for an absolute fact that what you preach is exactly what God said and intended to the point of certain interpretations of the words written in stone by God himself! I am not that arrogant.

    Kill, means Kill. Murder is a different concept than kill. God, from his lips said "Kill". The original texts say, Kill. We, as mere mortals, can interpret the word to mean ANYTHING we want it to mean. God said Kil. That means kill. I really hope that God isn't like Bill Clinton where he needs to know what "is" is.

    I Have brought you a hole... put my arm through it... shown you there is a void there and after the demonstation I realied that you had your eyes closed, your ears covered up and yelling "I can't hear you..ayayayayayaya"

    Worse yet, in explaining to me, there is no hole, you showed gave me an example of my own argument against you but then denied it!
    ----
    "Let’s take a look at a huge blunder….

    Luke 14:26

    No version above corrected this blunder. The Greek word is miseo; which in this context means love less.The other versions screwed this up too
    ---
    "You yourself have already said that the Bible has a "huge blunder" and pointed it out! "
    ---
    "No I didn't." [This is the beginning of a Monte Python skit] "The only blunder was in the translation of it. You attacked the KJV and I shown that the other versions failed in this verse too. This is the worst case scenario. This isn't par for the course.
    --

    Again...There IS A BLUNDER IN WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE PERFECT WORD OF GOD! The KJV of the Bible. The same blunder is repeated in other versions of the Bible. Therefore (if you are capable of this leap in logic) YOU HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE THE BIBLE TO SEE WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY MEANS!!!!

    ---
    "The KJV of the Bilbe is not the end-all of God's words!

    "In the English version, yes it is. The NIV and others sure in the hell are not. This version is the english version inspired by God. "
    ---

    Look at the comments above. You...in your own words said that there was a blunder in the translation! The fact that the same so-called blunder is in other translations does not excuse the KJV blunder! Make up your mind. Is it a work inspired by God and perfect in its form, or does it have errors? If it has errors, it is not perfect! If it is not perfect, it CANNOT be taken as the litteral word of God.

    You can have as many last words as you wish. I'll read them, but I will no longer respond on this subject to anyone who refuses to see the lack of logic in their own arguments.

    See ya
    Tony
     
  19. ka7yak

    ka7yak Mentor

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    Mar 24, 2002
    Rage,

    "With the new dispensation of grace coming in, the old Mosaic system is just a mere Jew religion."

    I would expect more from you than a statement like this. Judaism is more than a "mere Jew religion" and Jews are more than "mere" Jews. When G-d gave Jews the Torah, he gave the world the first system of laws and concepts that were unique and profound in a pagan world that worshipped multiple gods and idols and sacrificed human beings to those pagan gods. Judaism was first to recognize that all men were equal in the sight of G-d.

    Most of our laws today, and our view of justice come from the Hebrew scriptures.

    You are right about the comandment "You shall not kill"; the word in Hebrew is more correctly translated "murder". There are several words in Hebrew for kill and murder and their meanings differ based on the intent.

    Concerning your quote of Hermann Goering

    Goering was a despicable murderer, a thief and a fool, who lacked wisdom and understanding. It's not to your credit to quote such a monster as if his words carry any validity. The bulk of his statement is not his own, but is in fact based on the ideas his mentor, Adolf Hitler.:rolleyes:
     
  20. Rage

    Rage Fromer Member

    1,113
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    Aug 19, 2001
    God, from his lips said "Kill".

    I never seen the two stone tablets so I don't know what the original word was that was written by God's finger. However, the original Hebrew word was ratsach. Not kill as you stated.
    Obvouisly the word kill doesn't mean the same thing you think it means when God commanded his people in OT times to destroy the heathens around him.

    I Have brought you a hole... put my arm through it... shown you there is a void there and after the demonstation I realied that you had your eyes closed, your ears covered up and yelling "I can't hear you..ayayayayayaya"

    No you didn't. The only hole is your knowledge of His word.

    Again...There IS A BLUNDER IN WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE PERFECT WORD OF GOD!

    No there's no blunder in the Word of God. The translators screwed it up. The original Hebrew or Greek is there if there is any questions about the translations. I merely pointed out that no bible corrected this blunder when your original argument was about the KJV. Since then your argument moved from the KJV to God himself.


    YOU HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE THE BIBLE TO SEE WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY MEANS!!!!

    No I don't. I only have to look at the original text at times whis is the Bible but in Hebrew or Greek. You're starting to use some kind of whacked-out logic here. You don't have to be very swift to realize that the KJV of the Bible was used by the Hebrew or Greek
    version of the same Bible. This is not going outside the Bible at all.


    Look at the comments above. You...in your own words said that there was a blunder in the translation! The fact that the same so-called blunder is in other translations does not excuse the KJV blunder!

    Yes it does because your original target was the KJV of the Bible, now we all can see what your true agenda is.

    You can have as many last words as you wish. I'll read them, but I will no longer respond on this subject to anyone who refuses to see the lack of logic in their own arguments.

    Agreed! At the time I thought you were serious about some debate, now I see your real agenda. I came here today to answer the rest of one of your old post but now I see that it would be a waste of time.

    Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
    Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
     
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