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Should New Orleans be abandoned?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Nick, Sep 2, 2005.

Should the City of New Orleans be abandoned?

  1. Yes

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No

    32 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. Not sure

    40 vote(s)
    55.6%
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  1. Sep 2, 2005 #61 of 100
    RichW

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    We don't need to have the Jazz bars and other entertainment activities below sea level.

    But that would eliminate another reason to sing the blues. :)

    I'm in high water (dum-dum-de-de dum)
    Right up to my knees. (dum-de-dum)
    My axe strings are wet (dum-dum-de-de-dum)
    And no audience to please! (howl)

    I got those "hunderd" year floodwater blues!
     
  2. Sep 2, 2005 #62 of 100
    RichW

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    Must be a different 500 million. For fiscal year 2006 the New Orleans District of the Army Corp of Engineers faced an additional 71 million dollar budget reduction. Hopefully these funds will be restored now.

    But I am talking about the amount that was appropriated for the US Army Corps of Engineers by Congress in 2002 that was diverted by Bush and Rumsfeld (except for about 60 million) in order to pay for the Iraq War. It is all a matter of public record if you choose to look it up. That money was intially earmarked specifically to strengthen flood control around Lake Ponchartrain. While the levee improvements would not be to category 5 standards yet, it would have mitigated a lot of the flooding that occurred.
     
  3. Sep 2, 2005 #63 of 100
    DonLandis

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    New recon images in just tonight. New facts regarding this thread subject-

    Fact- The French quarter was mostly above flood area and is mostly intact, very little wind damage. That area will live on!
    Fact- Some of the better historical areas of the city were high above flood zone and it looks like a mild tropical stom damage. That area will need some minor cosmetic fixup.

    Fact - The low flooded sections were mostly the poor populated areas and also those areas are still the most populated. They are pretty much devastated. I say bull doze them and flatten the area and rebuild if it can be done above sea level. Otherwise the non-historical sections should be sealed off and no building permits be granted. We don't want another death trap for the poor again! Then if that area can't be raised to above flood level, at least build the highways above flood level so people won't gwet trapped!

    Somewhat off topic but never the less a fact of this event-

    It has been determined that the direct cause for the delay in our military being activated to go in and go to work was directly related to the ignorance and inaction of the governor of LA. She failed to call in her own guard and delayed that action until the day after. Bush had made the offer to federalize the Army and other military 48 hours before the hurricane hit when it was sure that NO was going to be hit. However, people need to relaize that the President of the US cannot just walk in and take over a city when the governor is still in charge. She refused the offer thinking that her 6500 NG and 1000 state police could handle the emergency. While it is true that many of the NG units and equipment were deployed in Iraq, that should be all the more reason she should have been on the phone to the President and had the mobilization of the active Army begun on Saturday! Then after the storm hit she still didn't call. Her excuse was she didn't know how bad the situation was. Her people were estimating far less than what it happened. Not until she learned from the press how bad it was did she act and request Federal assistance. Her own police in the city who are now crying to bypass the governor's office and go directly to the Federal government for help but little do they know that today that is a reality. The military are moving in now to regain control of the city. All local police are under the authority of the US military. We have seen National guard taking over control but rarely have we seen this where the governor has now stepped aside and the military leaders are taking over. This may be the first time.

    Also I just learned that Bill ORielly is coordinating a liason effort between the FOX news team in the city as the only reliable live communications with the military leaders and is GETTING results! This could be anyone but with the massive resources available all over the city, FOX and their key people are going to work as well as presenting the news. Live on TV FOX had effected some great liason that brought in a triage team to the convention center and the effort was coordinated by Geraldo Rivera and Bill O'rielly.

    Damn it, I think it is great to see this kind of cooperation between the resources of the news and the military come together after decades of fighting with each other. In a time of need for survival, people are doing what's necessary. I guess as much as some of you believe in politicians and political blame and hay, here's a time when two non-political groups are putting resources together, bypassing the politicians and doing what immediately necessary to save lives and protect property.

    BUT none of this is going to be fixed in a few desperate hours while people are dieing by the thousands as their 4 days of starvation and dehydration are at the end of the life cycle. It will take a miracle for the military to now save lives at this convention center. The situation is desperate as people are dieing right and left. The 159th is in there now with a triage unit and hopefully as long as the violent barbarians don't kill them they will do their job.
     
  4. Sep 2, 2005 #64 of 100
    Richard King

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    I can agree with this, the problem is that once they bulldoze, fill and rebuild there is no way that the housing built will be affordable to those who have been displaced. :(

    I sure hate giving them credit, not being a fan of either one, but hey, Good going Bill and Jerry!!
     
  5. Sep 2, 2005 #65 of 100
    RichW

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    I can agree with this, the problem is that once they bulldoze, fill and rebuild there is no way that the housing built will be affordable to those who have been displaced.

    Certainly not without massive subsidies. However there are some great success stories around the country where public and privare housing is built side-by-side, lowering the overall cost of the projects. Means tested qualifications for even some home buyers. Plus a school, public library and shops in hopes of sustaining the new project with viable economic opportunities. We have one such major project here. The ramshackled public housing originally built for shipyard workers after our Vanport Flood, was bulldozed and replaced with new construction. With some imagination, it can be done.
     
  6. Sep 2, 2005 #66 of 100
    SamC

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    Like any city, NOLA, including its suburbs, can be divided into several parts based on function.

    The Port of South Louisiana is the 4th largest port in the world. It is the place where the produce of half a continent meets the ocean. It cannot be abandoned.

    South Louisiana is, under the ground, made of oil, natural gas and salt. This has fostered a major oil extraction industry, and a petro-chemical and non-petroleum based (salt based) chemical industy. And the place is a major port for the importation of needed (thanks to the ANWR lock down) foreign crude. This must continue, although shifting oil import and refining capacity to a more spread out basis seems logical.

    New Orleans is a unique and intersting diverse part of the USA, and, since the highest land was built on first, the most historic part is the least damaged. It was, and will be again, a unique place with a vibrant tourist industry.

    And the people that work in these vital industries have to live and shop and eat somewhere.

    NOLA presents unique living challenges. But so do earthquake prone places. So do other parts of the south Atlantic coast. So does most of Alaska. So do tiny coal camps in Appalachia. But there are reasons these places HAVE to exist.

    BUT, then you have "the projects" and privately owned housing for people whose lives are subsidized by others. These, sad to say, form the bulk of those who could not, or would not, leave when plainly told to do so. There simply is no reason to place these people in harms way again. A person who is a career welfare receipient can just as well be a career welfare receipient in Houston, or Minneapolis, or Huntington, West Virginia. Moving these people to other places as a part of rebuilding a smaller, more well planned NOLA is imperative.

    And, likewise, while living on the coast in the warm weather is fun for rich and middle class (and generally white) retirees, the rebuilding of such places only to be knocked down again, is likewise dumb.
     
  7. Sep 3, 2005 #67 of 100
    Nick

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    The...
    Up to now, almost half of those voting "Yes" or "No" say to shut New Orleans down - 24/49.

    That is really surprising to me. I voted "Yes", but had caveats with regard to continuing with residential zoning in areas below sea-level in mind, particularly. If I lived in N.O., I would surely feel differently. Let's take the 'flood plain' rule and apply it in N.O. - no residential development, period, and all buildings would have escape hatches on the roof.
     
  8. Sep 4, 2005 #68 of 100
    jonstad

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    A "surge"(storm or tidal) is a rise in the average mean level of the ocean. A storm also creates heavy surf. The height of the surf is NOT considered as part of the surge. 8-10' surf would not be unusual for a large storm whether it's a hurricane or not. Combined with a 12' surge, heavy surf could easily put water 20+' above normal sea level.

    This combination of a massive surge and heavy surf surely is what caused the devastation Katrina brought to the coastal areas. It brought heavy surf up to a mile or more inland. New Orleans however is NOT on the coast. Although Monday was probably not a good day for a kayak or rowboat outing on Lake Ponchatrain or the Mississippi, I can't imagine the "surf" was anywhere near 8-10', but probably half that, MAYBE.

    The levees failed. If they had been on the coast, they would be nonexistant today because they were not built or designed to withstand a surge combined with heavy surf but a rise in lake or river levels. The Dutch levees are designed so even if they are overwhelmed, they will not be destroyed. Once breached, the levees in NO self destructed.

    As for North Atlantic or North Sea, it's a distinction without a difference, or at least not much of one. There is no sharp deliniation between them, ships and planes pass on and over them without knowing the difference, as do storms. Most accurately, the North Sea is essentially just a part of the North Atlantic. As far as that goes, where do you draw the line between the Atlantic and the Caribbean or Gulf of Mexico? Was Katrina an Atlantic storm or a Gulf storm? IMHO anyway, the Gulf and Caribbean are just other parts of the Atlantic.

    However, in the future, I will try to be more geographically specific.;)
     
  9. Sep 4, 2005 #69 of 100
    juan ellitinez

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    So what happens after we rebuild this place and it gets hit by a second hurricane?
     
  10. Sep 4, 2005 #70 of 100
    mainedish

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    Chip Groat is the Director of the United States Geological Survery and he said New Orleans will likely be on the verge of extinction by the this time next century. It's time to move it now and don't wait for another hurricane. And we are all going to pay for this . Long term and short term so make sure you speak up about it.
     
  11. Sep 4, 2005 #71 of 100
    SamC

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    Where exactly are you people proposing to "move" it to?

    New Orleans is the limit of sea going navagation on the Mississippi. That is a geologic fact that cannot be changed (except that it could be moved further SOUTH, into swampyer land closer to the ocean). The Mississippi is the transportation hub of one-half of the productive part of this continent.

    If LA got wiped out, build new LA outside the earthquake zone. Same for DC, Atlanta, or most coastal resorts, including those wiped out this time.

    But you HAVE to have a city exactly where NO is. That is why it was a city 400 hundred years ago.
     
  12. Sep 4, 2005 #72 of 100
    AllieVi

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    And the one after that. And the one after that...

    If people want to rebuild it, I say go ahead. Just don't do it at public expense. Let those who believe that it makes sense to rebuild bear the cost, reap the benefits and fully accept the risks.
     
  13. Sep 4, 2005 #73 of 100
    mainedish

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    Ok. Lets put it back and ignore the problem again :nono2:
     
  14. Sep 4, 2005 #74 of 100
    AllieVi

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    You may need a port, but not a city like NO.
     
  15. Sep 4, 2005 #75 of 100
    Geronimo

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    You may oir may not need a city but the way the querstion was phrased you can't have ANYTHING there.
     
  16. Sep 4, 2005 #76 of 100
    Chris Freeland

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    I read in an article in the Sunday Chattanooga Times-Free Press today that an Environmental Engineer (I can't remember his name) proposed 30 years ago that these same sections of NO that were flooded this time should be moved to higher ground that is available on the other side of Lake Ponchartrain. Government officials did not take him seriously then, maybe they should now.
     
  17. Sep 4, 2005 #77 of 100
    mainedish

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    Here is the real problem. They start to rebuild and hope they don't get a hurricane before they finish or it all gets wiped out again.


    And wait for the lawsuits. You don't think you sue a Hurricane? Think again.
     
  18. Sep 6, 2005 #78 of 100
    Nick

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    The...
    Now, add to the brew, viruses, bacteria, and worst of all, more than 200,000 ppm of e.Coli, and millions, soon to be billions of disease-carrying mosquitoes. There is talk among health officials of mass-spraying of insecticide in an attempt to suppress the growth of the mosquito population on the heads of an estimated 10,000 recalcitrant residents in the midst of this cauldron of death who are doggedly refusing to be evacuated.

    This is the ultimate, most-feared, nightmare "worst-case" scenario since the black plagues of Europe.

    Now Orleans is Love Canal times 10,000. Destroyed infrastructure aside, New Orleans may not be salvageable within the next 100 or 1,000 years.
     
  19. Sep 6, 2005 #79 of 100
    olgeezer

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    From Albert Camus:
    It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end. That hour like a breathing-space which returns as surely as his suffering, that is the hour of consciousness. At each of those moments when he leaves the heights and gradually sinks toward the lairs of the gods, he is superior to his fate. He is stronger than his rock.
     
  20. Sep 6, 2005 #80 of 100
    Nick

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    WTF, olgeezer? Are you losing (not loosing) your mind? :eek2:
     
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