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SixtoReport: D12 Satellite Info in Post#1 - Live!

Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by Sixto, Jul 27, 2008.

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  1. May 4, 2010 #8041 of 10270
    Stuart Sweet

    Stuart Sweet The Shadow Knows!

    Jun 18, 2006
    By folks here, do you mean me? ;) :lol:
  2. May 4, 2010 #8042 of 10270

    syphix Hall Of Fame

    Jun 23, 2004
    I guess it just comes down to this: is this really something to fret over?

    Many in the know are saying things are fine. History has shown that this silence period is *normal*. For whatever reason (does it really matter "why"?), TLE's are routinely not updated at about this same time in the life of D*'s D1x satellites. And each time, the bird has appeared where it needed to.

    Time to go outside and enjoy the real world. After all, it's in HD and 3D...and available NOW! ;):D
  3. May 4, 2010 #8043 of 10270

    jsg Cool Member

    Apr 15, 2010
    It might be better to release something that says TLE 170 is invalid, but I guess they don't. If they did you have to get the people who redistribute the data to mark theirs, too. It apparently just isn't done that way. The data just gets stale when it is no longer valid & there can be no reasonably accurate TLE computed to replace it.

    A body under acceleration simply cannot be characterized with a TLE. A TLE isn't meant to (just) tell you where something is, it is meant to predict where it will be. But a TLE doesn't have enough fields to allow any reasonable prediction to be made if the object is undergoing acceleration from propulsion.

    Better none than wrong.

    I think I read that they take several observations (three?) to compute a TLE and I assume they do this over some period of time. If that's right they then would have to feed this into an algorithm to solve the equations to come up with the TLE that would produce those observations. If all of what I said just happens to be correct I don't see how the algorithm could come up with anything at all for a new TLE, even an approximation.

    Even if they could they would have to see hallmark of the propulsion and mark the TLE so that others would know that it wasn't up to the usual standards of accuracy. There's no field in a TLE format for that.

    I wish I could find what I read again, but I looked for it this morning and couldn't find it.
  4. May 4, 2010 #8044 of 10270

    raoul5788 Guest

    May 13, 2006
    I am confused. You said earlier that there are industry methods that we don't know about that they use to coordinate satellite movements. That makes sense. It seems that those methods would be more accurate and therefore the industry standard. Why would they use an inaccurate TLE then?
  5. May 4, 2010 #8045 of 10270

    LameLefty I used to be a rocket scientist

    Sep 28, 2006
    One more time: The coordination goes on between parties known or likely to be affected. The TLEs that are released are not (intentionally) inaccurate. It was a hypothetical situation, stemming from the discussion of why TLEs are not released for long periods of time during extended propulsive events.

    IF an inaccurate data set was released and used by someone as the basis for the assumption that they are unaffected, that would be the problem.
  6. May 4, 2010 #8046 of 10270

    Darkscream Legend

    Mar 8, 2008
    Seems logical to me.
    Why put out a TLE that shows something somewhere - when it really isn't there. Or at least not there now.
  7. May 4, 2010 #8047 of 10270

    pfp Whatever

    Apr 28, 2009
  8. May 4, 2010 #8048 of 10270

    BudShark New Member

    Aug 11, 2003
    You are a more patient man than I am. When people who are guessing about a topic which I have knowledge in, want to debate and argue with me, I tend to walk away and leave them with no information. Since they have no knowledge to begin with, and were simply using MY knowledge to create arguments with me - they are left to sit quietly alone having learned nothing and gained nothing. Its a sad place for them to be.
  9. May 4, 2010 #8049 of 10270

    Skyboss Icon

    Jan 22, 2004
  10. May 4, 2010 #8050 of 10270
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    Apr 17, 2003
    You made something up and got called on it. Sorry.

    TLEs won't be released during a move because they are inaccurate vs an old TLE that is certainly inaccurate if D12 isn't at 76. The idea that releasing a TLE showing movement would be bad because another satellite operator may use that TLE to predict movement and conflict with D12s moves?

    BTW: Unless you're breaking a rule of the forum I'm just another poster here.
  11. May 4, 2010 #8051 of 10270
    Prince Oz

    Prince Oz Legend

    Jan 15, 2009
    OK, I can't take it anymore. I have been following this thread for it seems like forever. I want to thank all of you for making my day every time I read this thread. This is some really good stuff. What do I think about D12? It does not matter to me. If it happens it happens, if it don't it don't. I came from the era of watching BW TV and my dad telling me to get up and change the channel. What I have now with D* is like heaven. I hope it is going to be a suprise. One day I will get home and BOOM, more HD. Wooo Hooo:grin:
  12. May 4, 2010 #8052 of 10270

    LameLefty I used to be a rocket scientist

    Sep 28, 2006
    I made up a hypothetical scenario that is all too plausible. Your (continued) inability or refusal to comprehend that is no longer my concern.

    That is very good to know.
  13. May 4, 2010 #8053 of 10270

    elaclair Rescued Racers Live Here

    Jun 18, 2004
    Del Mar, CA
    Oh man, you are SO right.....
  14. May 4, 2010 #8054 of 10270

    PWenger Legend

    Jan 24, 2003
    You know, years from now, when the next satellite is launched, I would appreciate some one putting up a link to this archived thread.

    I will think back to the last few weeks of the D12 thread, and take a hammer and hit myself in the head with it a few times. I'll feel the same way I do now, but I won't have wasted as much time getting there.

    But at the risk of sounding positive and thereby getting attacked by the multitudes, I would like to thank Sixto for starting this thread, working on it so hard with little thanks from so many, and spending the time to provide us with real information. I barely have time to watch my friggin Directv between work and my first grader, but he's managed to search out and provide great information for those of us perverted enough to think of DBS as a hobby. You, sir, are further proof that no good deed goes unpunished...;).
  15. May 4, 2010 #8055 of 10270

    TDK1044 Godfather

    Apr 8, 2010
    Are we there yet? :)
  16. May 4, 2010 #8056 of 10270

    Skyboss Icon

    Jan 22, 2004
    Is it Memorial Day yet?
  17. May 4, 2010 #8057 of 10270

    evan_s Hall Of Fame

    Mar 3, 2008
    Yes they all use the XIPS system. All three are almost identical. There are minor differences in how the spots are aimed and D11 has the experimental BSS package it tested and D12 has 4 bss spots it will use.
  18. May 4, 2010 #8058 of 10270
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

    Apr 17, 2003
    When you entered the hypothetical you exited your safe world of "I'm an expert, trust me" and entered the level playing field of "lets be logical together".

    Your personal attacks being ignored for the moment, your hypothetical was incorrect as any satellite operator who would look at a "moving" TLE and assume it was safe would be more likely to look at a "parked" TLE and assume it was safe. You're asking us to assume that satellite operators assume.

    I agree with your claim that the operators coordinate with each other but I disagree with the hypothetical that any reasonable satellite operator would look at a "moving" TLE and assume their move would be safe without contacting the operator of the "moving" satellite for more information.

    And as far as the comparisons to D10 and D11 ...
    Were either of those satellites launched to and tested at an orbital location 27 degrees away from the final location? It would probably be better to compare the D12 move to a satellite that has moved that far than to D10 or D11. Especially if you can find another XIPS powered move as a comparison.
  19. May 4, 2010 #8059 of 10270
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

    Jul 25, 2002
    W.Mdtrn Sea
    There is no reason to withheld TLE.
    Well... perhaps just one: the D sats using military technology for rapid movements what other warheads utilize. :p
  20. May 4, 2010 #8060 of 10270

    Hoosier205 Active Member

    Sep 3, 2007
    Pot, meet...

    You sure have been fanning the flames a lot lately. That's unfortunate. I don't see Stuart, Doug, Tom, or Sixto doing that.
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