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Discussion in 'The OT' started by Herdfan, May 1, 2014.
To raise revenue for government entities. In many cases they have very little to do with safety.
I'd agree with you if you'd change "many cases" to "some cases."
I remember the speed traps in small towns, especially in the south, back in the days before Interstate highways. Perhaps they are still around but I'm sure they are not the money-makers they used to be.
I always thought California could solve its budget deficit problems if they had enough officers to strictly enforce the speed limit laws. One problem is that approach would work for a very short period of time.
I'm not even talking about speed traps. I mean that traffic engineers will tell you that speed limits should be set at the 85th percentile of the flow of traffic. Anything else and they are set for political or revenue purposes.
"Almost every" is an overstatement ... so we'll have to rely on your opinion on what "practice in safety" dictates. And many feel free to disagree with drivers traveling the speed limit being forced to merge into possibly slower traffic to let the lawbreakers pass.
The comment was made in this thread about officers who fail to enforce the posted speed limit. I hope those officers fail to enforce the "get out of my way" laws. If you're allowed to root for one law not to be enforced so can I.
Also from that page:
Note that this law refers to the "normal" speed of traffic, not the "legal" speed of traffic. The 60 MPH driver in a 55 MPH zone where everybody else is going 65 MPH must move right. Contrast Alaska's rule, 13 AAC 002.50, allowing vehicles driving at the speed limit to use the left lane, and Colorado rev. stat. 42-4-1103, prohibiting blocking the "normal and reasonable" movement of traffic.
Of course! Now, I don't recall that I expressed favoring one law over another - but I could be wrong. ( a first for everything..... !rolling )
AAA lists two speed traps on their website (defined by them as speed enforcement done for revenue and not for safety reasons): Waldo FL and Lawtey FL. Both on a stretch of road our family drives routinely. I've been pulled over for doing 56 in a 55. Didn't get a ticket only because the "officer" gave me a break because I'm retired military. A third town (Hampton FL) also had a speed trap set up along that same stretch. Over $212,000 in one year in a 120' section of highway they illegally annexed to set up their radar guns. And now they can't account for the money.
So there doesn't seem to be many around, but they still do exists.
The Uniform Vehicle Code is a privately prepared, model set of regulations that its advocates would like governments to adopt or implement. Other privately produced model codes that most of us are familiar with include The National Electric Code (NEC), which we expound upon in hundreds of threads here on grounding television antenna reception systems, the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) and the Uniform Probate Code. None of them carry any legal force unless and until they are adopted by a governmental entity that has jurisdiction over vehicle operation. States that implement the UCC and NEC generally enact statutes saying that a certain published version of that code is hereby enacted, with the following exceptions, which they also enact and publish in the same chapter of their laws. Last time I checked, he Uniform Probate Code was largely ignored by most states, as Probate Courts exist primarily for the purpose of allowing well connected political appointees to steal money from estates of deceased and incompetent people, and so the legislators don't want fair laws passed that protect the citizens rights and are not inclined to enact any portions of that probate code that protect the "wards" of the probate system.
People are sometimes forgetting... that "the normal speed of traffic" should be assumed to be one that is not otherwise breaking a law.
The "normal" flow of traffic shouldn't be 75mph in a 35mph area... but there appear to be those in this thread who would say that if everyone was driving that speed, then that becomes the "flow" of traffic.
Where does it end?
What if everyone in the right lane is already doing 65mph in a 65mph zone? There should be almost no reason for anyone to pass anyone else... but if suddenly a group of people decide they want to drive 75mph, how many does it take before that becomes the "flow"?
And... at what point could another group of drivers decide to drive 85pm and try to force that to become the "flow"?
On some levels this is like the people who claim music should be free or its ok to "take" music because record companies are greedy and musicians make too much money and you have the "right" to listen if you want to... or the people who want their TV to be free (topical for this forum)... people decide the speed limit doesn't apply to them, and will go out of their way to defend how they should be able to drive as fast as they want.. .and somehow it is everyone else in law enforcement or government or other drivers to blame if "something happens" because they weren't permitted to drive the speed they wanted.
I guess I shouldn't be too surprised... but I always am.
Someone once described this as democracy in action, and some suggest the 85% rule to be the speed limit.
Therefore if 85% of the people "vote" for a speed, then that's the limit.
Now we just need 85% of the people to drive 120 mph and "we're good" !rolling
Oh for the love of God... I don't think anyone is saying that. We aren't talking about residential areas and such. 75mph in a 65mph is reasonable flow on a highway/freeway assuming there are no issues related to weather, construction, extremely heavy traffic, etc.
Obviously, law enforcement would not allow 75 in a 35 to become the "norm".
So who determines where the line is?
I have drive on roads where the posted limit was 65mph... and I was temporarily doing 75mph in the left lane to get past a semi in the right lane... and had someone come up fast behind me clearly mad I wasn't already doing 85mph... and when I could safely move over, that car zoomed on by.
It's a huge slippery slope when people start saying that 65mph in a 65mph zone isn't fast enough so you should move over if you aren't doing 70 or 75mph... because then comes the group who wants to go 80-85mph in that zone and they expect you 75mph-ers to stop "clogging" the left lane with your slow driving.
It's a moving target (literally) if people are deciding that the posted speed limit means nothing and that everyone not doing whatever speed they are doing should be in the "slow" lane.
Maybe I want to do 70mph and not 60mph... but I don't want to do 80mph... do I have to get in line with the 60mph cars until your 80mph posse goes by?
That's why this whole discussion seems odd to me. It only ends when we reach an extreme like 70mph in a 35mph... and people say "nobody wants that"... and yet... I actually do see people going 55+ in school zones around here... and people get really mad when you are actually going 35mph in the school zone... and this often includes people who just left the school after picking up or dropping off their own kids!
There certainly are two strongly held sets of opinion in this thread.
First off, in my home state (Washington), the law say s "Keep right except to pass". I am a strong believer in that law, but sadly it is a generally unenforced law.
With regard to all the arguments about speeding or driving the speed limit, how many people have a calibrated speedometer? I mean actually calibrated at the factory, like you get in a special services package in a police car? And of those, how many people always keep the exact same sized wheels and tires on their car? In the absence of those factors, you can't really say if you are going the speed limit, a mile or 2 or 3 or more under, or a mile or 2 or 3 or 4 over. If you wish/choose to drive "the speed limit" in the left lane, I would certainly ask you to do so. Not 1 or 2 miles per hour under the speed limit (even if your speedometer says you are going the speed limit). I do have a (factory) calibrated speedometer (in one of my vehicles), and if I set my cruise control to exactly the speed limit, I will regularly catch up to and overtake left lane "parkers" (although I won't be in the left lane at that speed, or at any speed unless I'm passing).
I personally think it is much safer to move with the flow of traffic than it is to drive at a particular speed. That way, you are not forcing others to try and find ways around you (if you are slow), or trying to find ways around others (if you are fast). So if traffic is moving 5 or 10 over, then that is the safest speed to drive.
I detest the saying "Speed kills". Inattention kills. Defective equipment kills. Inexperienced drivers kill. Under the influence drivers kill. Those who text/email/phone (with our without hands free) kill. Unruly pets or kids in the car (that distract the driver) kill. I have driven thousands of miles at or over 100 MPH (legally, in Europe), and never had any type of issue. I pay attention. When I'm driving, that is the only thing I'm doing. I don't even turn on music in the car. I'm paying 100% attention to my vehicle, the road, and traffic around me. I've never been in a moving vehicle accident, and the last ticket I got was in 1969. And I regularly drive 5 to 10 over (when the situation permits).
Okay' that's my $0.02 worth. Regardless of what speed it is at, please drive safe.
I still don't see an answer to the "what determines the flow of traffic" question. We are almost literally talking to the "give an inch, take a mile" scenario... where you relent and say "5-10mph over the posted limit is ok" so then people do that... and then another group comes along "only" doing 5-10mph over that... and up we go.
I'm on record multiple times saying this isn't a debate over what the speed limit should be. I have opinions about that, but those are for another thread. The fact remains that there are posted speed limits... and I don't believe people should be penalized for driving that posted speed limit regardless of what lane they are in.
As for the "is your speedometer calibrated" argument... that's why I've avoided the 1-2 mph over the limit discussions. I'm literally talking, and have given examples... where I have been 10mph over the posted limit in the passing lane and had someone coming up behind me wanting to go another 10mph over what I'm doing... so even if my speedometer is off a little, it isn't off that far.. and how do I know your speedometer isn't the one that is off? And how do you know that your professional calibration was actually performed correctly?
That's why those aren't part of the discussion I'm having.
I'm asking where the line in the sand is where people feel it is ok to ignore the posted speed limit BUT that they will not keep moving the line further.
If the posted limit is 65mph... and you expect to be able to do 75mph and that everyone else should get out of your way... do you feel the same about the guy who wants to do 85mph and thinks you are driving too slow? Then how about the guy who wants to go 95mph? Where are you drawing the line? And once you draw that line, why did you draw it there? Where does the "flow of traffic" argument end?
It we are arguing for crowd/mob rule... and majority is in charge arguments for speed of traffic... do you think that is wise? Would you apply it to things other than the speed limit?
What if we are on a 3-lane highway... the right lane is going 65mph, I'm in the middle lane going 75mph, and you want to go 85mph... do I have to get out of your way from the left AND middle lanes? Or can I stay in the middle lane at whatever speed I want?
Some here seem to be arguing for a "whatever the most people are doing is the rule" situation... which seems like a dangerous way to go to me.
I think at this point you are the only one focussing on that question. While an important one, it seems more philosophical than practical.
Regardless, I haven't found any good defense to staying in the left lane unless you are passing. If you are passing at something other than one or two mph faster than those being passed, then the yokel zooming up on you is just that, a stupid yokel, unless he backs off, leaving a safe distance from your vehicle. The when you're no longer passing, and the right lane is clear you signal, check all mirrors, and move right.
Slower traffic keeps moving over until the police determine that an individual's speed is too high. That is the way it is supposed to work. If someone wants to drive 100, I will move over and let them.
Good post! I don't like to use my OnStar phone because it distracts me. Any distraction can be deadly.
But if that was the "law of the land" there would be no point in posted speed limits. All that money on signage could be saved if the police are going to be permitted to just decide on a whim day-to-day what is "too fast"... I'm pretty sure the law doesn't really work this way when it comes down to it.
The point is is that the posted speed limit is not relevant to the practice of moving over if faster traffic come up behind you. Let he police handle people who drive over the speed limit, if I see someone come up behind me I will move over when I safely can. As I usually travel a little over the limit anyway, I have no problem with letting someone get ahead of me and attract the attention...
That's actually not the point of this thread, though. This thread started with "states cracking down on left lane slowpokes"... so we are talking about scenarios where police might ignore the speeder and ticket someone else for not getting out of the way of the speeder.
So... the debate has been would this really happen and is it legally enforceable?
I'm not talking about whether I should try and enforce laws as a non-cop... I already established that I get out of the way when I can...
The question has always been (from me anyway), how a police officer could ignore speeders in favor of ticketing non-speeders who didn't move out of the way of the speeders.
It would be like if you are outside a bank that is getting robbed... and the robber comes towards you and you don't get out of the way and he pushes you aside to escape... and then the police arrest you for not getting out of the way of the robber while allowing the robber to get away.
If someone is speeding, coming up behind someone driving the speed limit or slightly above, and a police officer ticketed the slower driver for "impeding the flow of traffic" then that police officer would have to go to court and explain why he was allowing/encouraging the other drivers to exceed the posted speed limit. I can't see that flying in court for anyone who challenges their "impeding the flow" ticket.