Superdish and long cable run

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by Herbssat, Mar 1, 2005.

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  1. Mar 1, 2005 #1 of 18
    Herbssat

    Herbssat Cool Member

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    Oct 19, 2004
    We recently installed a superdish 105 for a customer and had to move it about 230 feet away from the receiver because of property issues and trees. We were able to get about 60 percent on 119 transponder 2 and the strength is equally as low on the 110 satellite. The 105 bird is running about 50% on transponders 2,7,and 18 if not mistaken.I realize that this is a long distance but other installers say they have run 300 feet or longer without problems.When I plug my CM1004IFD into the system my signal strength at 119 is maxed out, but I still get only 60 percent on the lower transponders.I talked with dish about this problem but got very little response as the person I talked with did not seem to be very up to speed with this.I am running cable from my distributor with about 60 percent shield and rated to 3000mhz however it is copper clad steel.Would an inline amp solve this or should I go with another type cable? I have also bypassed DP34 switch with no better results.Need suggestions on this one.
     
  2. Mar 2, 2005 #2 of 18
    Jacob S

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    The 230 foot of cable should be fine. Another option is to have three seperate wires run (one from each lnbf) to the house then hook it into the switch there and run it into the receivers from there.
     
  3. Mar 3, 2005 #3 of 18
    SimpleSimon

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    Jacob - I don't think that 3 feeds would help fix this problem. Might even make it worse. Having the switch halfway between might do OK - but probably not.

    That being said, I WOULD run the 3 feeds - just so that future expansion won't require running cable all the way to the dish.

    Using GOOD cable (solid copper, 100% braid - even QuadShield) just might do it. If not, an amp might do it, or RG-11 (expensive).
     
  4. Mar 3, 2005 #4 of 18
    rurso

    rurso Mentor

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    Dec 9, 2004
    I don't think its the cable but at the end of the run-at the dish-check the voltage,should be around 18- 20v. I think you don't have the dish aligned for max- it needs to be tweaked.
     
  5. Mar 3, 2005 #5 of 18
    geobernd

    geobernd Mentor

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    I would be worried about
    60 percent shield and rated to 3000mhz however it is copper clad steel
    with the long run. You might have a problem getting enough power through. The quad shield solid copper has much less DC resistance...
    I always use quad shield solid copper core and currently have not trouble with about 200 feet on a legacy install (significantly beyond the specified limit). Signal Quality is exactly the same directly at the dish with 3 feet of cable or in the basement with 200 feet.
     
  6. Mar 4, 2005 #6 of 18
    larrystotler

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    E*'s specs say that Copper Clad Steel Centerconductor(CCSC) RG-6 is only rated for a MAX of 125 ft, and that Solid Copper Center (SCC)RG-6 is rated at a max of 200 ft with DP or DP+ equipment only. However, I have ran CCSC almost 400 ft with little problems, so I would start by checking your voltage drop. You need at least 19Vs at the dish for the system to work properly. Also, I would try using a standard dish500 and see what signal you get versus the SD. I have installed an SD with a D500 on many occasions due to line of sight problems....
    50% on the 105 is not too bad, but 60-65% would be better...
     
  7. Mar 6, 2005 #7 of 18
    Herbssat

    Herbssat Cool Member

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    Oct 19, 2004
    Ok guys here is what I have on this problem.The cable run could possibly be about 260 feet and I have 2 inline f to f connectors in the line. If you measure the voltage at the dish bypassing the switch you get the 20 volts as stated at my channel master 1004IFD. If you connect the 119 lnb to the lnb side of the meter the voltage drops to about 17 or 18 volts. I tried an ASKA 917D inline amp and I will never try that again. It totally locked up the customer's 301 receiver and I had to do a number of soft resets and a hard reset to get the receiver to work again. I have some Belden rg6 cable that I got from another tv man but I cannot find any specs on it. It might be copper clad steel again. Another thing I did find was replacing the first cable coming from the house entrance to the first splice caused the signal strength to rise from 48 to 62 on satellite 119 trans. 2.By the way, the belden cable i have is lot number 1828 duobond.
     
  8. Mar 6, 2005 #8 of 18
    SimpleSimon

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    Splices in the middle of that long a run are BAD.

    As for voltage, of course you will get a drop when hooking up the LNB - if you did NOT, then the LNB is dead (open circuit). Basic electricity. 17V is marginal.

    Look closely at a freshly cut center conductor. You should be able to tell if it's plated or solid. A run this long REQUIRES solid copper - if not even RG-11.

    Replacing that one run kinda indicates that you're narrowing down the problem, eh?
     
  9. Mar 6, 2005 #9 of 18
    gernskin

    gernskin New Member

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    Apr 21, 2004
    Tell me if im wrong but center copper strand is for voltage only used for working switch and or LNB , does the signal not travel in the void the dialetric filler creates, thus the copper center strand has nothing to do with signal?
     
  10. SimpleSimon

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    Sorry, no. The L-band (950-2150MHz) signal band travels mostly on the surface on the center conductor (which is why we can get away with copper-clad at all), but DOES travel better when the underlying metal has better conductivity.

    IIRC, higher frequencies (much higher) can act more as you say, although the waveguides used there actually have no center conductor.
     
  11. larrystotler

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    My understanding is that the white part is what carries the signal, and that it is designed for 75 Ohms of resistence. The problem with a votage drop is that the signal is basically "pushed" back down the line, and the LNB has to have enough voltage to push the signal. If the voltage drops too much, then your signal degrades since the LNB doesn't have enough juice to push it(kinda bad analogy, but....). With Cable and OTA signals, the boosters just basically add voltage to the line, which also helps to carry the signal. Keep in mind I'm not a cable engineer, and could be way off the mark. A TV has a small output voltage to pull the signal from the OTA cable for like rabbit ears......

    Please correct me if I am wrong........... :)
     
  12. SimpleSimon

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    Sorry, Larry, you're wrong on all counts. The 75 Ohm rating isn't even resistance, but inductance.

    Sorry, man.
     
  13. rurso

    rurso Mentor

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    Dec 9, 2004
    Again the cable is not the problem. For a superdish for 105 or 121 the strength is probably 50-60. When you set these up most peolple use trensponder 11 that is usually the one you will get the most strength and you adjust your dish for 110 or 119 for the highest peak. Always do a Checkswitch after so the switch is locked in. The transponder is related to the channel you are tunned into-some channels are higher or lower-this is done automatically when you change channels. If you get a picture on every chanel,not to worry. Now if the dish isn't aligned for max on 110 0r 119 you might loose some channels from rain fade or bad weather.
     
  14. larrystotler

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    A weak signal for the 105 is normal due to AMC2, however, a signal of 80-100 should be expected with the 121. E* made a too many comprises with the SuperDishes. When using a good 40x30" P* dish, I have pulled 80+ on the 105 and 90+ on the 121 with the 721 receiver(which maxs at 100, not 125 like most of the otehr E* receivers) on all transponders. The OP also stated that he was only getting 60 on the 119 as well, so I am willing to bet that he also has a LOS issue.
     
  15. Jacob S

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    The signal from 105 should rise once the new satellite is put in place there and lit up for all the channels we are currently watching off of the old 105 satellite.
     
  16. rurso

    rurso Mentor

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    Dec 9, 2004
    I have a superdish with the 110,119 and 121. In my location I can get ~100-110 on 110 and 119 but on the 121 max is 60. I can adjust it to get the 121 higher but loose on the 110-119. I get all the channels the 121 has so I leave it there. On a superdish the lnbs are physically set up for 105,110 and 119 or 110,119 and 121. If you want to alter them physically you could-makeshift sorta. The sats are degrees in the sky. 105 is left and first,then 110 then 119. Now on the 121 it is right, then going to the left is 119 and 110. So 105 is 5 degrees to the left of 110 and 119 is 9 degrees to the right of 110-you could see the diff if your using the 121. The skew is pretty much imaterial once you get them into the dish(because of the shape of the dish) but the elevation has a big part in it as does the AZ. Depends what you want. You could set up a dish with a single lnb and lock it in to probably 115-125 on any sat you want-a lot of people do that.
     
  17. KKlare

    KKlare Godfather

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    Sep 24, 2004
    Sorry Simon, it is impedance not inductance. The distributed LC circuit has inductance and capacity per foot as well as resistance. We want the resistance to be much lower but the L and C determine the nominal impedance. Lower capacity with a lower dielectric constant is associated with lower dissipation. The geometry then determines L and C.
    -Ken
     
  18. SimpleSimon

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    KKlare - you're right - impedance - I knew I was off a bit when I wrote it, jsut couldn't put my finger on it - but I KNEW it wasn't resistance. ;)

    And thanks for the additional info - it all goes into the swamp I call a brain. :)

    That for sure - along with the rest of the post this snip was in.
     
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