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Technicians Refuse to Install Eastern Arc

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by kejebe, May 7, 2011.

  1. May 8, 2011 #21 of 104
    kejebe

    kejebe AllStar

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    gtal98, Thanks for the pointer on asking for an internal technician. I'm pretty sure that the three technicians that were here were all sub contractors. My two Dish's are sitting right next to each other and the run is 10 feet from Dish to receiver..

    Stewart Vernon, I agree 100% and yes I'm very frustrated.

    Jim5506, Yes I currently have two Dish500's. The one pointing to 61.5 only has a single LNB on it though. So if I'm following what everyone is saying they would just need to swap out that LNB for a dual LNB and tweak the position of that Dish to pick up 61.5 and 72.7.

    Doesn't sound like a major job to me. Sounds like someone could be in and out in less than 30 minutes.
     
  2. May 8, 2011 #22 of 104
    TonyT@DISH Network

    TonyT@DISH Network New Member

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    Wow. This is a terrible story, and I am sorry about the frustration. I got your PM pointing me the direction of this thread, and thank you for bringing it to my attention, Kejebe. If you could PM me the account number or phone number, I think I might have a solution to all this and can monitor that solution from my end.

    I WILL get this handled for you though, one way or another. Sometimes, just not having to deal with it (other then being available during the "window") can relieve a lot of the stress.
     
  3. May 8, 2011 #23 of 104
    kejebe

    kejebe AllStar

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    Anthony, PM sent.. Thank you so much!!
     
  4. May 8, 2011 #24 of 104
    Mr-Rick

    Mr-Rick Legend

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    This is where a local retailer should be able to help. Unfortunately, DISH has been marginalizing the local retailer for quite some time. Many retailers have quit and many that remain complain. I see this on the dealer website all the time.

    Now granted not every retailer is perfect but I am willing to bet a retailer will go the extra mile more often than a subcontractor will. The retailer's business hangs in the balance.

    With that being said, DISH should become more proactive and allow the local retailer and even the ROR (Retailer of Record; the local retailer who sold the system and installed it) to do all necessary repairs and upgrades. After all, they are the local experts and are familiar with the area, dish configurations, and the install itself. Unfortunately, DISH ignores the local retailer in this instance. Why, it's gotten so bad that DISH will compete against a retailer on a customer upgrade.

    How long can this go on before the Retailer throws in the towel and closes? Then who would be the local expert? The subcontractor who eyeballs a line of sight?
     
  5. May 9, 2011 #25 of 104
    gtal98

    gtal98 Godfather

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    I agree - but Dish up to this point has not suggested the configuration we're talking about. They've just sent guys out for work orders to put in an EA dish - which would in fact remove the OPs locals completely. So Dish CSR's aren't always on the ball either.

    The actual Dish configuration is largely determined by the Technician onsite because we're the only ones who know which satellites have what channels, and what the customer can actually receive due to LOS issues. It's just a sad fact that some technicians care about the customer more than others - it's just the way the world works unfortunately.

    kejebe - I'm glad TonyT is finally on this, I hope he can get things straightened out for you. Keep us apprised of the situation.

    MrRick - Dish's long term plan (I believe) is to eliminate subcontractors completely and bring all installations in-house to the DNS offices. So the local expert will be a direct Dish employee and they therefore have more control over the entire customer's experience, without relying on any 3rd parties at all. This is many, many years away from happening to the whole country though.
     
  6. May 9, 2011 #26 of 104
    BattleZone

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    Agreed. CSRs often suggest or even promise things that techs can't deliver, for various reasons.

    Here's some things folks need to know:

    - A tech only gets paid when a job is completed. Techs therefore have a financial incentive to complete a job. BUT, if the job cannot be completed to Dish's standards, or will have other problems, techs have a financial incentive NOT to do the job.

    - Dish *requires* the signal strength on each satellite to meet local standards. A QC tech will test 4 transponders on each satellite, both from the dish as well as *from EACH tuner on EVERY installed satellite receiver*, and if any one transponder falls below the threshold, the entire job is an instant QC fail.

    - As mentioned, the configuration Dish is recommending is the WRONG one, because the OP is in a Western Arc territory and being offered Eastern Arc, which would result in the loss of his local channels. Techs will understand this, because they've likely been charged back in the past for jobs they completed per Dish's instructions and then had the customer complain to Dish. Techs know their local market and what sats need to be picked up.

    - Dish does not make it easy, or financially equitable, for a tech to use a non-standard equipment setup and still get reimbursed for the equipment used and remain compliant with the QC standards. Thus, any time a tech does something outside of the norm, he risks his pay and his stats. This is because Dish strongly prefers "standard" installs, as they give Dish more flexibility at the lowest cost.

    Yes, all of that means that the relatively few folks who need something non-standard can find the going difficult. Sometimes it means going outside the system with a private installer (that you have to pay yourself), and sometimes it even means having to switch to another provider.

    Remember, though, that a company with 14 million customers can only go so far to accomidate an individual "exception." It's the nature of big business.

    Dish seems to be on track to fix some of these issues with future sat launches, which will have different footprints than the current EA sats at 72.5 and 77, which were repurposed from other orbital locations, and that will likely solve the signal strength issues and allow places like Miami to be moved to EA. But it will be a couple of years before those birds are up and active, so Dish has to do what they have to do right now.
     
  7. May 9, 2011 #27 of 104
    Dave

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    Yes and perhaps if Dish could find some good installers that at least made an effort to help the customer, then maybe there customer service rating would be higher. But when you get lazy installers that don't want to do the work or lie to Dish about completing a setup when no work was ever done, then you wonder about installers. Any installer that just shows up and looks to the sky without even taking reading or pulling out his campass or meters is giving Dish a real bad name in the installer department and costing Dish customers. Because if it were me I would call all my family and friends and tell them do not get Dish, they have lazy installers and you can't count on there work. You have to remember the average person does not know about DBSTalk and coming here to get answers to there questions. Or have a Dish rep right here to help us out. So what would you do as a average person without this support here? I do know there are some great installers out there that do what it takes to help the customer.
     
  8. May 9, 2011 #28 of 104
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    To be fair here... I see blame to go around (not to the thread starter, though. He seems quite reasonable, rational, and hasn't exploded yet like some of us might in his situation).

    Dish has to take blame for sending sub-contractors out without details of how to handle the job and for not following up to make sure the job was done and for not being aware of potential issues in some markets.

    The subcontractors have to take blame for not attempting to work at all with the customer, apparently communicating false info back to Dish to clear the work order, and for not trying to educate Dish about potential issues unique to that particular location.

    I've worked with a local installer several times... not a Dish subcontractor... and he was very good. He would tell me what he wanted to do... I would tell him what I would like him to do... and we either agreed to do it my way, his way, or had reasonable discourse about why one of the ways really wasn't ideal.

    To me, that's how an installation should go... There are some things that the technician will know best and should not compromise just because a customer wants it... similarly, there are things a technician should be prepared to do IF a customer asks a reasonable thing... and last, but not least, all such things should be explained to the customer.

    I, for instance, have a 2-dish Western arc... because the installer and I agreed that since I previously had a wing dish anyway, it made sense to keep using it and point it at 129 because I would get better reception that way... he didn't force a one-dish solution on me and didn't refuse to do the work. He also spent time checking line-of-site before starting and gave me a rough plan on where he wanted to put the dishes.

    There are good techs, and bad techs... and there are good Dish reps and bad Dish reps... true for most companies.
     
  9. May 10, 2011 #29 of 104
    kejebe

    kejebe AllStar

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    Here is a brief update as to what is happening behind the scenes.

    Anthony contacted me on 5/8/11 and since then we have been in touch a couple times via PM. He is waiting to hear back from either a FSM or DNS. Does anyone know what DNS is? I know what it is for the Internet but not Dish?

    Thanks everyone for your continued contributions to this thread and for your many different insights from a variety of perspectives. It has been very helpful.

    I will be sure to keep everyone up to date as Anthony and I work our way through this situation.

    Kevin.
     
  10. May 10, 2011 #30 of 104
    boba

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  11. May 10, 2011 #31 of 104
    TonyT@DISH Network

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    Boba is correct.

    When we say "single dish installation" it is more a general reference to arcs, such as EA or WA installations, which is mainly to eliminate loss of channels during a channel migration and prevent calls about missing channels. Some areas of the country still require two dishes due to being in low signal areas (24" dish pointed at 129 or whatever).

    Get back to you, kejebe. **EDIT** On phone with DNS currently.
     
  12. May 10, 2011 #32 of 104
    TonyT@DISH Network

    TonyT@DISH Network New Member

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    Well, I was able to speak with the FSM familiar with the job. He actually spoke with me directly to avoid confusion, and provide me with as much information as he could.

    He started by telling me that three separate installation companies have rolled on this job, along with "official" DISH techs, and all of all of them have reported the inability to complete the work and provide the necessary signal to pass QAS. All of this was confirmed in the notes. He said that based on his experience, and the experiences of his techs in the apartment community you live in, he would not be able to place the dish where it would need to be in order to receive adequate signal based on its size. It would have to go on the roof to be pointed the way it needed to be, and the property manager had expressly told him “no” in the past at other installs in the same complex. He basically said that installing this in the only location available would actually cause signal issues that would result in trouble call after trouble call, a risk that no tech was willing to take.

    Apparently, the dish reflector is too large to aim it properly at the current location and would basically be limited in motion due to physical obstructions, not by anything in the distance. If he brought it to a point that was still approved and the dish could move freely, the points that would have restricted the motion of the dish would then be obstructing the line of sight. He was very apologetic about the job, and wished he and his techs could have provided the installation. He also said that he was sure that the other techs that showed up over the course of this ordeal would have rather earned the money for the job instead of turning down the work.

    Hopefully this clears things up.
     
  13. May 10, 2011 #33 of 104
    tampa8

    tampa8 Godfather/Supporter

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    That answer took me by surprise. I don't see where the OP ever mentioned he was not in his own home, but in an apartment. Now what each of the three installers said makes sense. It just reminds me to scrutinize more before offering advice.
     
  14. May 10, 2011 #34 of 104
    kejebe

    kejebe AllStar

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    Anthony,

    Thanks for looking into this I sincerely appreciate your time.

    Unfortunately the information the FSM supplied you is basically no different than the information I provided in my original post! It boils down to the technicians say nope can't be done even though not a single one of them did or tried anything.

    Lets break this down into the three issues the FSM mentioned:

    #1 The FSM sates that I can't meet QAS? Seeing as NO technician actually tried anything how are they so sure? What is this magic QAS number that I have to meet in order to qualify for an install? I already have 61.5 installed so that must have passed QAS I can't see any reason 72.7 wouldn't?

    #2 The FSM further states installing the dish would cause signal issues that would result in trouble calls? You will note there isn't one single trouble call on my account for my current Dish500 pointing to 61.5 since the dish was first installed in January 2009.

    #3 Apparently, the dish reflector is too large to aim it properly? I'm not sure where that information came from. Not one single technician mentioned anything about there not being enough room? How could there not be enough room? I already have the Dish500 here? I'm under the impress it just needs to be adjusted a "tad" to pick up 72.7? Plenty of room to move that dish around. As a matter of fact if the problem is that moving that Dish would cause signal lose or that for some strange reason the dish just can't be moved at all I have more than enough room to actually put another Dish500 right next to the current 61.5 dish and point that single dish at 72.7.

    So where does this leave us?

    Kevin
     
  15. May 10, 2011 #35 of 104
    SayWhat?

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    Move to another residence.
     
  16. May 10, 2011 #36 of 104
    kejebe

    kejebe AllStar

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    tampa8 and SayWhat,

    I appreciate the information and insight you have shared in this thread but I hardly find the fact that I live in a condo as compared to a single family home of any importance. There are plenty of issues that may arise no matter what your living arrangements are.

    It all boils down to LOS which I have.

    I'm sure there are plenty of people with beautiful single family homes and 10 aces of land but their only opening allowing them LOS is a tiny little opening between some trees that they don't own on their neighbors land that requires the dish to be placed 200 feet away from their house.

    My set up is on my balcony which in my opinion makes the install much easier than having to climb up the side of a house with a bunch of equipment or running cable all over the place looking for LOS. They walk out on my balcony attach the pole to cement slabs I have on the floor, move the dish around and bingo. Done!

    Sincerely,
    Kevin
     
  17. May 10, 2011 #37 of 104
    SayWhat?

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    Apparently you don't. At least not sufficient LOS for the service(s) you want.

    They probably have tried many, many times for other locations in your complex and know when it's an effort in futility.
     
  18. May 10, 2011 #38 of 104
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It's hard to say whether or not the techs in this case have been forthright or have been doing their job and communicating to the thread starter properly...

    It does make a difference being a renter in an apartment or condo as opposed to a home that you own... because the landlord has to give permission to drill into things like the roof or walls... so without that permission, the installers have very limited options to just common use areas.

    With that in mind... even a small degree variance (say from 61.5 to 72.7 or 77) could be possible for one but not the other... the condo itself could be in the way of the line of sight on a balcony install... and if they can't put it on the roof, then there isn't any reason to actually go try anything. It would be a known issue.

    IF that proves to be the case... those techs would have done themselves and Dish a HUGE favor by communicating this to the customer rather than making stuff up to tell him.
     
  19. May 11, 2011 #39 of 104
    TonyT@DISH Network

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    When I spoke with the FSM, he mentioned he was bound by regulations enforced by the property manager as far as the number of dishes and placement. He was also bound by DISH to provide a quality of the signal that he knew would not be provided based on the property restrictions. He was on site and I have to take the word of the numerous techs and the FSM on this one. I don't like the answer, but I don't get to change it for that reason.

    As far as the situation at this point, I cannot override the decision in this instance. I have exhausted any means I have to assist.
     
  20. May 11, 2011 #40 of 104
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    And that brings us back to finding another place to live.

    One could go through the process of fighting the landlord in court for placing unreasonable limits on satellite dishes ... assuming that all the dishes installed would be within private use areas and not encroach on common space ... but it sounds like there is no line of sight from the government protected private use areas.

    The number of dishes shouldn't be a problem, but placing them all within private areas could be. There is nothing in the law that limits the customer's protection to ONE dish or even one service. The law protects any dish up to one meter needed to receive the desired signals. But the dish(es) are not protected if they are in common use areas.

    The law protects those who want satellite dishes, but only to a certain point.
     

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