The Tivo vs Echostar (mostly speculation) Thread

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by Rob Glasser, Apr 11, 2008.

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  1. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Why in the world would you be having a discussion about DirecTiVo features in a DISH Network forum? Bored? Looking for a fight?

    :backtotop Tivo vs Echostar ... and the lawsuit
     
  2. Curtis52

    Curtis52 Hall Of Fame

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    I'm sorry. I can't talk about it.
     
  3. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    You already answered that question anyways (10 days ago, about 32 hours after it was asked).
    No need to answer it again. No need to drag up the question again either.
     
  4. Curtis52

    Curtis52 Hall Of Fame

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    http://online.barrons.com/article/SB121081057432193629.html?mod=googlenews_barrons
    ...
    We have believed that there would be some day of reckoning on the part of Dish despite its efforts to push the date out; that date may be close at hand. Our recent checks with patent attorneys familiar with the process suggest that the judge's hands are likely to be tied on the issue of enforcing the injunction that was confirmed by the appeals court on
    Jan. 31. Specifically, we expect the judge to far prefer erring on the side of conservatism and turn off all the Dish DVR models specified in the injunction, rather than risk allowing some infringing DVRs to possibly remain on while the question of the Dish work-around is resolved.

    While we have no way of evaluating Dish's design-around of course, the point may be moot for purposes of the enforcement of the injunction, which could force Dish to at least offer TiVo something to keep its DVRs working, even temporarily.
     
  5. jacmyoung

    jacmyoung Hall Of Fame

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    How does that work? According to some it is not even up to Tivo anymore, when the judge says to turn off DVRs, DISH should have done so some time ago.

    I am not against a settlement at all, but let's first figure out if any settlement will be able to prevent the shut off of the DVR functions. According to the "expert" speculation above, it is possible so what do you think?

    My issue with the above speculation is they did not consider the appeals court at all, because even if the judge refuses to hear the DISH's new software claim, DISH can still appeal, and the appeals court can hear it.
     
  6. Curtis52

    Curtis52 Hall Of Fame

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    It's what we've been telling you for weeks. No stay pending appeal. moot moot moot
     
  7. jacmyoung

    jacmyoung Hall Of Fame

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    You did not even understand the question, no one is talking about stay of injunction, rather contempt of court.

    The above speculation basically said the judge would likely find DISH in contempt rather stay the injunction while trying to hear the new software claim. A speculation nevertheless. And in that case of course DISH can appeal.

    My question to you is what was your notion about this was the end of the road for DISH, no matter what they do or what Tivo does, DISH is finished, when the same analyst said now DISH may settle with Tivo to keep the DVRs alive, even if just "temporalily."

    Can you explain that?
     
  8. Greg Bimson

    Greg Bimson Hall Of Fame

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    Once again, you are missing the boat. Why should the injunction be stayed now that there is a possible workaround? An injunction is not modified until after it has been proven that it should be.

    This is the point some of us were trying to make all along. The patent attorneys familiar with the process believe that the judge will have no other choice than to shut down offending DVR's, unless there is a settlement.

    Why would TiVo even remotely consider a temporary settlement? A permanent one should have been struck before the injunction was in full force and effect.

    Some people believe an injunction is simply a piece of paper with no weight behind it, and can be changed at any time.

    Nope. It takes a lot of work to change an injunction, and it normally carries full force and effect until it is proven that it needs to be changed.
    Just like me, Curtis believes that Dish Network and Echostar will have to pay TiVo through the nose to come to a licensing agreement. That is the "end of the road".
     
  9. jacmyoung

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    And based on what past history do you even believe for a minute Charlie will "pay through the nose", ever? He'd rather shut off his DVRs, like he did to the distants, and his VOOM...Will that be the end of the road for him? You tell me.

    The only time he will accept some settlement is if the settlement makes sense to him.

    If Tivo insists Charlie pay through the nose, Tivo will end up with just about $200 million or less, nothing more. Tivo will still have no meaningful agreement with anyone. Have you read how badly the cable/Tivo service boxes trials had turned out to be? Have you not read what Tivo said in its own annual report the prospect of any DirecTivo in the future?

    I guess you can simply pick and choose what those analysts were saying, that when they said DISH may be forced to settle with Tivo even for a temporary deal to let the DVR stay alive, it did not fit your own wish. The way I read that speculation is the same general thinking behind it, that it is Tivo who wants to keep DISH's DVR alive, only if Tivo can get DISH to be willing to sit down and talk.

    What they are saying is the prospect of the judge refusing to stay the injunction may finally force DISH to do so.

    What I am saying is I am not even thinking the judge to stay the injunction at this time, assume he will find DISH in contempt (if Tivo asks for that), DISH can still appeal such ruling, whereas Curtis did not understand me, he said DISH has no right to appeal. In that sense he was wrong.

    Whether there will be a settlement before the contempt hearing is still questionable, and even whether the judge will find DISH in contempt while refusing to hear DISH's new software claim is also questionable.

    What is not a question is who has more to lose if a settlement is not reached, the analysts seemed to be saying Tivo has a lot to lose too if DISH refuses to settle. Which is why they think Tivo may even allow a "temporary" settlement.
     
  10. Curtis52

    Curtis52 Hall Of Fame

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    Yet another misstatement. Is there no end? I think we're up to 70%. The analyst said there probably won't be a stay while Dish tries to prove the new software doesn't infringe. He agrees with me. Nowhere, not once, have I ever said that Dish has no right to appeal. Sheesh.
     
  11. Greg Bimson

    Greg Bimson Hall Of Fame

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    I think you are giving Mr. Ergen too much credit.

    First, "like he did to the distants" wasn't Mr. Ergen's choice. So you realize, even though the injunction went in full force and effect on 1 December, 2006, the appeal still went to the Supreme Court and was denied. There is also that issue of NPS, where a ruling could come down any day now.

    Second, Mr. Ergen and company did have VOOM over a barrel, based on the terms of the contract. However, it will be interesting to see this quarter's numbers to see if there was any effect.

    Third, Mr. Ergen and company immediately paid DirecTV $600 million upon breakup of the merger agreement back in 2002. It is widely believed that Echostar could have sued back then to recover some of the monies, and litigated out a lower settlement number. So it is definitely possible and within Mr. Ergen's genetic makeup to actually settle.
    You are still missing the boat.

    Judge Folsom: You haven't turned off the DVR's in the injunction?
    DISH/SATS: We've updated the software so they are no longer infringing.
    TiVo: We don't know if the software is no longer infringing.
    Judge Folsom: I will schedule a hearing to see if you are no longer infringing, but the DVR's will need to have their DVR functions shut down until we sort this out. I also find you in contempt of court because you have not shut down the listed DVR's.

    Then you are stating that is appealable. Sure, anything is appealable. However, where does this appeal go? Back to the same court that allowed the injunction to stand and removed the stay that was already on it, forcing the injunction to become in full force and effect. I truly doubt the Court of Appeals would do anything, other than to rubber stamp what they've already rubber stamped.
    That's what I've been saying all along. However, the big bat at the playground belongs to TiVo. How many customers will DISH shut down if they don't get their way? How many customers will defect if DISH refuses to settle? If DISH plays that game, I'll bet you the shareholders will start a revolt. And, yes, it can happen.
     
  12. jacmyoung

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    What I was saying is even if he was right that the judge will not stay the injunction, meaning finding DISH in contempt, DISH can still appeal, so why were you trying to dispute that?

    Now the analyst apparently believed also that it will be in Tivo's best interest to settle, so much so he even thought Tivo would allow a "temporary settlement" just to get Charlie to begin talking. Did you agree with that, or did you just want to pick and choose what to agree?
     
  13. jacmyoung

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    Yes that is when the appeal can happen.

    That is your opinion though. What I am saying is DISH has a good case to convince the appeals court that if they can find its new software "more than colorably different" (which is not difficult to do IMHO) they should stay the injunction while the new software claim is sorted out. It has been done before.

    Here you suddenly no longer read what the analyst was saying (again pick and choose what you like to read), what the analyst was saying is Tivo may even allow a "temporary settlement" to allow DISH DVRs to operate, if that could entice Charlie to talk. Did not sound like the analyst believes Tivo is going to make sure Charlie pays through the nose, did it?
     
  14. Curtis52

    Curtis52 Hall Of Fame

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    OK. I'm going to type slower so that you can understand (maybe). Dish can appeal anything and everything. I have never said otherwise. I don't appreciate falsehoods. The analyst said that the DVRs are likely to get turned off while any appeals go on.

    "We have believed that there would be some day of reckoning on the part of Dish despite its efforts to push the date out; that date may be close at hand. Our recent checks with patent attorneys familiar with the process suggest that the judge's hands are likely to be tied on the issue of enforcing the injunction that was confirmed by the appeals court on Jan. 31. Specifically, we expect the judge to far prefer erring on the side of conservatism and turn off all the Dish DVR models specified in the injunction, rather than risk allowing some infringing DVRs to possibly remain on while the question of the Dish work-around is resolved."
     
  15. jacmyoung

    jacmyoung Hall Of Fame

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    So what? I was simply saying even if he could be right that the judge will find DISH in contempt, meaning not allow a stay while trying to sort out the new software claim, DISH can still appeal. Why did you try to dispute my such statement?
     
  16. Curtis52

    Curtis52 Hall Of Fame

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    I'm sure that if you keep restating it enough times we'll eventually get the Gettysburg Address out of it.
     
  17. jacmyoung

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    I am sure if you simply tried to read what I was saying you would not have tried to dispute it in the first place.

    I will give you one last chance, if the judge finds DISH in contempt (meaning refuses to stay the injunction while looking at the new software claim), can DISH appeal or not? Pretty simple yes or no question that does not need any lengthy quote to get you no where.
     
  18. Curtis52

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    It's what we've been telling you for weeks. No stay pending appeal. moot moot moot
     
  19. jacmyoung

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    I hope you understand you were not answering my question?

    So one more time, if the judge will not allow a stay, meaning to find DISH in contempt, will DISH be able to appeal the contempt ruling or not?
     
  20. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Dish needs to buy Tivo and get this over with....

    Of course, then the two most powerful DVR makers would be in the hands of the two best pay tv providers... and cable would be even more screwed... :D

    When was the "30 days" up? It seems like it should be next week, yes?
     
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