TiVo vs EchoStar: Echostar found to be in Contempt

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by Curtis52, Jun 2, 2009.

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  1. Mar 1, 2010 #1961 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    Today E* just filed a bunch of patent documents with Judge Folsom. The files are sealed but similar to what they filed a few months ago, could be related to one of the new designs E* said they were working on. It appears now E* has at least two new designs ready to be reviewed by Judge Folsom, that is if they are necessary.

    Also today the appeals court issued a decision on another case which was heard by the same panel and on the same day the TiVo v. E* case was heard, so a decision on this case could come soon, or not:)
     
  2. Mar 1, 2010 #1962 of 2012
    Maverickjoe

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    So here we have several more predictions that you probably are not even aware you just made::)

    Do you even know when the things you say constitute a "prediction"? Or are you confused that they might be "speculation". That distinction would take a nuanced interpretation of the English language that you do not possess. So we'll leave it that when you are called out for making misinformed or misguided predictions (or "speculations"), when denying that you have made these predictions your response is...

    P.S. I almost forgot to mention that part of your "forced response" has been to revert to slamming TiVo stock values in a Forum where "stock talk" is not allowed. That's an odd and inappropriate response, seems like someone hit a nerve. To set the record straight, as of TODAY:

    DISH stock 5-year performance: +53.36%:(
    TIVO stock 5-year performance: +151.50%:)
     
  3. Mar 1, 2010 #1963 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    You are confused, I did not call them "predictions", they were speculations. I said I only made one prediction, TiVo at around $10.

    Thank you for correcting yourself.

    If by predicting TiVo at $10, and being correct so far, in your view is slamming TiVo stock value, I can only feel bad for you, like many other TiVo investors these days, you all seem very frustrated about the TiVo performence, yet I found most Dish investors quite content these days, I will just leave it at that.
     
  4. Mar 2, 2010 #1964 of 2012
    harsh

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    "Performance" means different things to different people and share price is only part of the overall picture when it comes to the value of a stock share.

    TiVo has never offered a dividend and if I recall correctly, they've only booked a profit for two or three quarters of their existence. One of those quarters, Q3 2009, included an 87 million dollar infusion from DISH Network or it would have otherwise been a $900,000 loss.
     
  5. Mar 2, 2010 #1965 of 2012
    phrelin

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    Northern...
    You've got that right. The TiVo stock price increase is a good example of why we have economic problems in this country. Producing a profit each year and sending some to the shareholders as the fair return on investment is what a company is supposed to do and share prices should reflect that.

    A rise in share price based on PR and speculation is not "performance" IMHO. It means someone put a pile of chips down on "even" at the roulette wheel and the ball landed on 8, so at that point in time he made money and got an adrenaline rush. And if he leaves it on "even" and it comes up 17 the next time, his bubble burst like the "dot-com bubble" and the "housing price bubble" and the....

    But it's part of the history of America, those people who talk about winning every time they go to Las Vegas.
     
  6. Mar 2, 2010 #1966 of 2012
    TulsaOK

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    Come on now, let's play nice. No need for the personal insults.
    How about getting back to the subject?
     
  7. Mar 2, 2010 #1967 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    Let's be fair, part of investing is speculative in nature, what's driving the market and feed the smart investors. This is not America, rather capitalism.

    The problem is, there are some investors who tried to get rich fast by relying on our government enforcing the patent law, they invest in companies like TiVo for that reason, yet when the same government can't manage to deliver the goods to them, they blame the government for not been efficient, slow, don't know what they are doing.

    Not realizing it was the exact same reason TiVo managed to make $100M from E* in the first place. If you rely on our government's lack of ability and efficiency to get rich, don't complain when it delays your dream.
     
  8. Mar 2, 2010 #1968 of 2012
    Paul Secic

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    Geez how many years will this go on?????????????
     
  9. Mar 2, 2010 #1969 of 2012
    phrelin

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    It's only limited by the imagination and greed of the attorneys and the patience of the judges. It could be forever.:rolleyes:
     
  10. Mar 2, 2010 #1970 of 2012
    Lake Lover

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    As an investor for nearly 46 years now, I can't let this go without comment.:) The last thing that I and many long term investors need is to receive "a fair return on investment" in form of heavily taxed cash dividends. Two out of several of my best long term investments are Apple, Inc., and Berkshire Hathaway which do not, and I hope never will, pay cash dividends. These companies have done pretty well for their shareholders over the years, no? Microsoft Corp. has started to pay cash dividends and the stock has been straight line ever since. If we should require cash, we are better off selling a few shares and taking a long term gain on which the income tax is at a lower rate than regular dividend income.

    Over the past six years I have laddered up on shares of TiVo, Inc., selling some off as they became long term. I still hold some, speculating that long term TiVo will continue to provide capital gains. The loss of subscribers is already priced into the issue. A loss for the next few quarters is a given. Sometimes a little speculation returns the biggest long term returns.

    I think the recent poison pills were instituted not so much in relation to a favourable pending decision and a possible related bid by DISH, but rather as a delaying tactic to a potential bid by a third party.;)

    Sorry to have strayed off target for this topic. I will now slink off into the bleachers and enjoy the verbal sparring. It nearly as good as Letterman and Leno!:lol:
     
  11. Mar 2, 2010 #1971 of 2012
    dfd

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    Is there any limit to greed in an attorney? I could link to a number of stories from our local paper that would suggest otherwise.
     
  12. Mar 2, 2010 #1972 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    Yet both TiVo and E* have no problem feeding them, so whose fault is that?
     
  13. Mar 2, 2010 #1973 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    I think his point was, with TiVo it is a lot like rolling the dice, depending on which way the court might rule, not based on its business performence. You didn't invest in Apple because of pending lawsuits, did you? Or let me ask you this, what is the reason Apple has been a good investment?

    Don't get me wrong, there are cases which a court ruling or government approval can lift the stock and make some investors rich overnight, but one must also be willing to accept the opposite can happen too.
     
  14. Mar 2, 2010 #1974 of 2012
    phrelin

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    Northern...
    There are always exceptions - companies that invest their profits in developing new products or in expanding their value through investment when that is their purpose.
    Microsoft, like IBM before it and I suspect Google after it, produced a very successful product line, but is struggling to adapt. Like many, I sold MSFT right after I tried out Windows ME. When all you're doing is updating products to keep pace with technological changes, you've matured as a company. As a profitable company they quite correctly started offering a modest dividend a couple of years later IMHO.
    I do that too, but speculation "means engagement in business transactions involving considerable risk but offering the chance of large gains." I don't think it's good for the country for speculators to swap money around between each other. Until retirement I loved putting small amounts of moeny money into IPO's to help grow a company - and the economy - in a real way, as I really couldn't participate in the economy as a venture capitalist.

    More recently I've become a real speculator/gambler such as when I bought Ford and GM near rock bottom. GM became worthless and Ford is worth double what I paid for both. It was speculation based on my gut feeling that one or both might not go under. I could have also put the money down on black at the roulette table.
    No, no, don't leave! Sometimes it's good to expand the discussion in this thread.

    By the way, I think TiVo deserves some royalties from Dish and others, not because of the patents, just because they did make people other than techies aware of the DVR and its benefits which in turn benefited other companies. But I'm a sentimentalist.
     
  15. Mar 2, 2010 #1975 of 2012
    Albie

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    Certainly a long term investor would know that currently Long Term Capital Gains and Qualified Dividends are both taxed at 15%
     
  16. Mar 2, 2010 #1976 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    And also a gambler?:) I don't know if the two will work out together:)
     
  17. Mar 2, 2010 #1977 of 2012
    Lake Lover

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    Hmmm. Am getting senile? I am sure that I paid the same tax rate on dividends as the tax bracket I fell into, and only 15% on long term gains. I have not done my own tax returns for some time, but I left a call on my cpa's phone, and he will resolve it.
     
  18. Mar 2, 2010 #1978 of 2012
    dfd

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    Dividends are paid from what is left after paying corporate taxes so they are really doubly taxed.
     
  19. Mar 2, 2010 #1979 of 2012
    jacmyoung

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    So what can you TiVo folks report us on the new TiVo DVR released today? I heard it has caught up with the TV anywhere you want it, when you want it concept, but hopefully they did not use terms like "TV Everywhere" or "Sling", don't want to be sued by Charlie you know:)
     
  20. Mar 2, 2010 #1980 of 2012
    dgordo

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    Up until 2003 qualified dividends were taxed at income tax rates, since then they are taxed at the same rate as long term capital gains. Without changes in the laws, they will revert to pre 2003 levels starting in 2011.
     
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