Transponder & Band Plans

Discussion in 'DIRECTV Tips and Resources' started by tomspeer46, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Dec 2, 2015 #61 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    I think I noted that in the comments. From some of the narratives filed along with the application, The FCC instructions for Schedule S are archaic. They arewritten with the concept of one uplink channel, feeding one transponder with one downlink channel. The regullations required DirecTV to file it that way. I just used the Schedule S transponder table to get this started, and will refine it. As I read the descriptions, they could turn down any of the 3 output beams for any of the transponders, if the didn't want to broadcast it to that area. I kind of doubt they will do that. as you describe it, each uplink beam has its own receiver and amplifier. Is this true? If so, it is pronanbly for redundancy, but since they use the same output frequency and beams, I doubt they will ever be used simultaneously. So as I see it, each group of six lines on that chart represents one TID or TPN, and it will appear in the system data that way. How to describe the transponder names and uplinks and downlinks in one line is the challenge. I want to condense it, but I am not sure how.

    As it stands today, any information in the weekly downloads will populate all 6 of the lines with the same information, unless they assign different TIDs to each output beam. They have never done that.
     
  2. Dec 2, 2015 #62 of 120
    HoTat2

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    But you can't uplink to two or more different xpndrs on the same frequency and polarity from the same site. They would at least have to come from different sites as is done for spotbeam xpndrs that have the same uplink receive freqs. and polarities.

    Therefore the CONUS+, HI, and PR beams are not fed from separate xpndrs with distinct uplinks to each. But one xpndr feeding three downlink beams simultaneously. Though there are 3 separate PAs and antenna assemblies, 1 for each path.

    Oh, and one other detail ...

    The chosen uplink facilities for the RB-1 and 2 are the NWUF (or S4), and the SWUF (S3) was later changed to the NEUF (S5) a while back.

    I see that you have the RB-2 map listing this correctly, but not RB-1.

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  3. Dec 3, 2015 #63 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    Can you point me to a specific FCC filing where they changed RB-1 uplink facilities?
     
  4. Dec 3, 2015 #64 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    I have updated both the Transponder Maps an the Band Plans to show the correct frequencies for D5@110,
    Peter Smith pointed out to me that the LNB for 110 uses a LOF of [SIZE=10.5pt]11,541,600 KHz, in order to band stack it with 119 when they use some of the same frequencies. Peter said "[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]I recall VOS posted the summary 5 years ago at DBStalk". I have never been able to open the Schedule S database for D5, so I used the frequencies that were incorrectly being reported by others. Those frequencies fall outside of the range of the 110 Ku LNB, as posted on its label. Thank you, Peter.[/SIZE]
    This error has been in my Band Plan document since I first published it, nearly a year ago.
     
  5. Dec 4, 2015 #65 of 120
    HoTat2

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    Well after researching this, I found that I could have been presumptuous here.

    It's actually only explicitly stated in a modification narrative for RB-2. But I drew an inference that the same applied to RB-1 as well when in DIRECTV's application for a "Milestone Extension" of RB-1, only the NWUF, NEUF, and CRBC sites were listed as part of it's uplink site ground infrastructure along with RB-2's ME application too.

    The SWUF was not included in either ME document, though perhaps this isn't sufficient proof so keeping the SWUF as one of the uplink sites for RB-1 may still be correct.

    Sorry. ...

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  6. Mar 18, 2016 #66 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    D11 transponder sheet updated to agree with newly discovered FCC data for D11: Exhibit 43 (Narrative) of the LOA filing.
     
  7. Mar 18, 2016 #67 of 120
    HoTat2

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    Hey Tom;

    Just wondering since this newly discovered document reads a total of 43 spotbeams for 105 spotbeam xpndrs for D11 and you accept this as accurate. Then this suggest that same 43/105 count in the spotbeam connectivity chart of D10's original narrative is accurate after all?

    Therefore since D12's spotbeam payload fully replaced D10's, if D12's spotbeam listings need revising as well to bring them into harmony with D10's chart?

    Though I admit that I once saw an FCC document published sometime prior to D12's launch which said that only 5 spotbeams for 13 xpndrs would be disabled like you have them. However D10's chart shows 6 spotbeams disabled for 15 xpndrs plus 1 xpndr each missing from 3 active spotbeams for a total of 18 inactive spotbeam xpndrs.

    Same total beams and xpndrs inactive on D11 according to the new document, but different ones of course.

    EDIT: I see that one of the inactive spotbeams on D10's connectivity chart is A3BB, which you estimate to be for Hawaii matching D11's that you discovered documentation for.

    So now I don't know, perhaps D10's chart is incorrect as we thought since what other spotbeam could be used then for Hawaii's LiLs and mirrored nationals 103(cb)?

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  8. Mar 18, 2016 #68 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    Beam A3BB is used for LIL service to HI on D11. It is used for all National transponders on D10,D11,and D12. A beam is an antenna. It is not a transponder. I don't have access to all my tables this weekend, but as I remember, the LIL transponders on A3BB on D12 are unused.
    The Honolulu locals have always been on D11.

    Revisions are in the works for D10 and D12. I updated D11 now because the uplinks I had published, assuming they were the same as D12 were so wrong.
     
  9. Mar 19, 2016 #69 of 120
    HoTat2

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    I understand, but my point was that the spotbeam connectivity chart in D10's narrative had always been considered incorrect in the past. But now since the chart for D10 happens to match the chart in the recently discovered document for D11 in so far as the total numbers of spotbeams and spotbeam xpndrs at 43 spots containing 105 xpndrs. I was wondering if it was more than a coincidence and D10's chart might be accurate afterall. And thereby D12's spotbeam payload might be configured the same way as in D10's chart since it's a total replacement for D10's spots (except for the Hawaii spotbeam of course).

    However, as I noticed later that D10's chart does not even list an A3BB spotbeam, I guess that chart is actually in error to some degree as first believed. For how could that chart be correct since Hawaii would not be able to receive the 103(cb) nationals without an A3BB spotbeam?

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  10. Mar 19, 2016 #70 of 120
    HoTat2

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    Addendum for reference;

    For instance the former LiL spotbeam payload configurations for D10, D11, and D12 was a total of 44 spotbeams containing 110 xpndrs maximum. That is five spotbeams comprising 13 xpndrs are permanantly unused on each.

    However, the spotbeam connectivity chart for D10 completely omits spotbeams A1B8, A2B3, A2B7, A3BB, A4B9, and A4BD. It also omits one xpndr each from spotbeams A1B6, A1BC, and A2BC equalling a total count of 6 spotbeams and 18 xpndrs disabled. Therefore leaving 43 spotbeams containing 105 xpndrs maximum.

    For D11 according to the spotbeam connectivity chart contained in the newly discovered document omits spotbeams A1B2, A2B2, A2B5, A2BB, A4BA, and A4BC. In addition one xpndr each is omitted from spotbeams A1BA and A4BA totalling 6 spotbeams and 18 xpndrs disabled. Leaving 43 spotbeams containing 105 xpndrs maximum.

    For D12, the only info. for the spotbeam payload numbers are the first stated of 44 spotbeams containing 110 xpndrs with five spotbeams comprising 13 xpndrs disabled.

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  11. Mar 20, 2016 #71 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    [SIZE=12pt]HoTat2, I do not disagree with anything you have posted. Apparently some of us have dismissed the original documents filed with the original applications for D10 and D12 as being inaccurate. I am willing to accept that possibility, if we have concrete evidence that they are indeed inaccurate, otherwise, I am using the documents filed with the FCC. In the published transponder maps, I try to give the sources for my information, and highlight any exceptions, backed by evidence. My problem was that I had been looking for something like a Schedule S database for D10 and D11, and I failed to read far enough into LOA Exhibit 43 to find Appendix A and find the transponder tables.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Because I have come to the analysis of these satellites a little late, and am cross-correlating the various sources of information. I hope I have brought new perspective. If any of you has concrete information that will improve these transponder tables, please let me know. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]There are 4 Antennas (reflectors) on these satellites and theoretically 13 possible feedhorns on each, for a total of 52 possible beams. (Antennas 1 to 4, beams 1 to 13, 1 to D in Hex). Beams A1B2, A1BD, A2B2, A2B5, A2BB, A3BC, A3BD, A4BA, and A4BC do not exist in any of the licensing documents for D11. Since we have no information from any of the sats for A1BD, A3BC, A3BD, these three "theoretical" beams certainly do not exist, leaving 49 possibilities. Five other beams that are not shown on D11 would point at ocean areas or countries outside of the United States, and for a satellite built solely for service at 99 west, it makes sense that they are not on board. That leaves beam A2BB, With the offsets that we calculated from D12, beam A2BB would center on the Four Corners (CO, UT, AZ, NM ) and would cover the Grand Junction-Montrose DMA, an unserved DMA with 68,700 TV homes. But the LOA says that transponder is not on board D11, and there is nothing that says it is, at this point. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]More on D10 spots vs. D12 spots later.[/SIZE]
     
  12. Mar 21, 2016 #72 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    Minor correction: should read "one xpndr each is omitted from spotbeams A1BA and A4B8".
     
  13. Mar 21, 2016 #73 of 120
    HoTat2

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    Thanks....

    You know I was thinking after carefully re-reading the letter you found clarifying the spotbeams for Hawaii from D10 and D11. That it could be interpreted to mean that only D11 includes LiL xpndrs on its A3BB spotbeam. Whereas D10's Hawaii spotbeam is only capable of carrying mirrored nationals, which is why it has no listing in it's spotbeam xpndr connectivity chart.

    Sort of like how spotbeam C01 on D14 functions to solely bring nationals to Hawaii.

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  14. Mar 21, 2016 #74 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    I agree with that interpretation.

    While we are counting things, there is one factoid that I discovered in creating the antenna group footprint files in the beam footprints. In the FCC filings for D10, D11, and D12, there are exactly 11 active beams on each of the four antennas, but only if you count beam A3BB on D10. and A2BB on D11. A3BB does not appear in the connectivity table for D10.because that table is documenting the LIL uplinks to LIL spotbeams. On D10, A3BB was not connected to any uplink carrying LIL signals, so it is not in the table. But it is active carrying the National channels. The 11 beams per antenna also includes A2BB on D11, which we have omitted from the latest transponder map and beam footprints, so far. I am trying to gain further insight into the 105 active TID numbers in the connectivity charts vs the 110 possible uplink channels.

    There is apparently something in the design that only allows 11 active spot beams per antenna. This is despite the claim in the Narrative that the satellites will support 49 spot beams.
     
  15. Mar 21, 2016 #75 of 120
    inkahauts

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    I sometimes wonder if all the documents you are finding aren't updated since we know DIRECTV tweaked d12 for sure between original build design and actual finished product since it was first designed to be identical to d10 and d11. And we know d10 had major issues. Don't know if they made any tweaks to d11 before it launched because of d10 issues but I doubt it.
     
  16. Mar 21, 2016 #76 of 120
    slice1900

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    They made tweaks to both D11 and D12, for the experimental RDBS payloads they carried.
     
  17. Mar 21, 2016 #77 of 120
    HoTat2

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    Yeah ... I'm thinking it's ...

    D10's A3BB spotbeam is for 103(cb) Hawaii nationals only. No LiL xpndrs assigned to it.

    D11's A3BB spotbeam for 99(cb) Hawaii nationals plus an active LiL 17/18 xpndr pair for Honolulu locals.

    D12's A3BB spotbeam for 103(ca) Hawaii nationals plus an unused LiL 17/18 xpndr pair likely included since D12 was originally designed to be positioned at either 99 or 103W.

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  18. Mar 21, 2016 #78 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    Yeah, they did. But they filed the extra payloads as seperatespace station licenses.
     
  19. Mar 21, 2016 #79 of 120
    tomspeer46

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    I would love to find any updated documentation. It might help resolve a large disparity between the original D10 and D11 uplink to downlink mapping and the mapping for D12 filed in it's documents. So far, looking through every FCC filing for D10 and D11, I have failed to find any update to this information.
     
  20. Mar 22, 2016 #80 of 120
    inkahauts

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    The tweaks where more than that for d12 for sure. That one has hi and lo for conus which the other two didn't as I recall.
     

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