U.C.C. Endorses Gay Marriage

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Frapp, Jul 4, 2005.

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  1. Jul 8, 2005 #221 of 284
    Geronimo

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    I wonder if tehre are any dancing, ham eating gamblers out there selling insurance to churches while they pledge allegaince to the flag?
     
  2. Jul 8, 2005 #222 of 284
    RichW

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    Only the drunk ones, Chief! :)
     
  3. Jul 8, 2005 #223 of 284
    pjmrt

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    An interesting belief - and perhaps a more devout position (I'm not saying I agree though). But you say its been that way since 1708. So am I then to take it that you would (and The Church of the Brethren) would hold the War of Independence, the 1812 War (the REAL war of Independence), the Civil War (which the no-good yankees started :) ), ... etc. were all sin? I think to argue such, you have good ground based on the Bible. Like I said, a better argument than picking and choosing which war is sin.
     
  4. Jul 8, 2005 #224 of 284
    pjmrt

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    Dancing, ham-eating gamblers who sell insurance would say anything (including the pledge of allegiance) and would sell to anybody. :D
     
  5. Jul 8, 2005 #225 of 284
    pjmrt

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    I don't think any of us is saying otherwise. Jesus died for them too. But what we are saying is that repentance comes after one realizes their sin - and repentance is core to salvation. So what justification can a (supposedly) follower of Jesus possibly have for proclaiming certain sins to not really be sin, and in effect, encourage that behavior? None!

    And what about the argument that embracing this behavior will somehow lead to Christ? No, it encourages them to stay in a sinful lifestyle (and although perhaps fun for a short period, sinful lifestyles are ultimately destructive and the consequences of the sin are awaiting them). Does it lead them to Christ? No, not really. Does Jesus reach people and DELIVER them from homosexuality? You bet he does.

    from just one testimony, I've heard others firsthand in church....
    http://www.firststone.org/testimonies/men/im_a_brand_new_man_by_jim_venice.htm
    My sins were forgiven and cast as far as the east is from the west (Ps. 103:12). I was a brand new man, a new creation without a past (2 Cor. 5:17). I was no longer a homosexual! (1 Cor. 6:9-11)
     
  6. Jul 8, 2005 #226 of 284
    RichW

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    No, repentance is NOT the core to salvation. Belief in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ is all that is required. Otherwise none of us would get to heaven. Remember, you and I are just as sinful as the homosexual, and we are in denial if we think otherwise. We all sin recurrently until death. That is the Gospel Truth!
     
  7. Jul 8, 2005 #227 of 284
    jonstad

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    It seems some may take "Thou shalt not kill" more lierally than others. And yes, they believe God's prohibition overrides what otherwise may be considered by some to be "just wars".

    But being who I am:D, I am under no such constraints. And I would certainly fight and kill for my country under many circumstances, although I must admit having not been witness to any of those circumstances in my lifetime.

    I must confess admiration though for those who because of religious conviction refuse to participate in any human military conflict. I find it much less hypocritical than the position that "God" finds some wars acceptable and some not. Because those who make that judgement ALWAYS base it on pragmatic human criteria rather than divine directive. "God" is hard enough to imagine, let alone a God who directs humans to kill other humans on an industrial scale.
     
  8. Jul 9, 2005 #228 of 284
    Bogy

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    I guess your denomination is almost as "crackpot" as mine. ;)
     
  9. Jul 9, 2005 #229 of 284
    Bogy

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    I have also seen the testimony of gays who felt that God had "healed" them, but who later found that they were still gay. Unfortunately, the stories of how they were changed is still circulating, but not "the rest of the story." I have no doubt that there are those who have "chosen" to be gay, and who can decide to change. But I don't think this is the case for the majority of gays.
     
  10. Jul 9, 2005 #230 of 284
    Danny R

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    I have also seen the testimony of gays who felt that God had "healed" them, but who later found that they were still gay.

    You mean like this?

    http://www.skeptictank.org/gen1/gen00417.htm

    Of course skeptics will say that like any sin, one can backslide if they are not vigilant, just like an alcoholic should never take a drink.

    Ultimately however I've also read stories of how Jesus cured someone of the sin of "dancing". Churches can cure anything they think is sinful if the person is willing or beaten down enough. (most "interventions" use mind control techniques.) Even non-christian churches like Scientology can make the same claims, because they use the same techniques. No "Christ" necessary.

    But ultimately one's own true nature will always come back if the new conditioning isn't reinforced.
     
  11. Jul 9, 2005 #231 of 284
    Nick

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    The...
    Where is the "God is on our side" crowd here?

    Oh yes, they're down at the neighborhood little league sporting event, praying that their kids beat the holy bejeezus out of the other kids. :shrug:
     
  12. Jul 9, 2005 #232 of 284
    pjmrt

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    what can I say - other than wrong. The testimony I heard in church, he had been delivered from that sin for some time now. The pull of sin is strong, especially if they've been involved for a while. Sort of like alcoholics I suspect.

    But I would like you to post one of those testimonies where God had delivered them from homosexual sin, but then they changed their mind and decided they were still homosexual and returned to the practice. I know the liberal answer to everything is "that's way they are" or "that's the way they were 'wired'". Sorry, but there is no credible evidence to back that up. We all have a sin nature. Some are susceptible to different sins than others I suspect - but we all have the choice to either do it or not. And I suspect its not just a concious decision, but things (like the childhood environment that Jim Vince mentioned) probably play a role too.

    Bottom line - same gender sex is a sin. There are other sins too, equally bad. A "christian" church cannot just take something God has said is sin, and philosophize it away - claiming obscure translations of words that the vast majority of Bible scholars somehow missed,... not once, but repeatedly through the centuries (and rabinical scholars before that). Its not just in the old testiment, but in the new testiment too. But my words will not sway you or the UCC I'm sure. But the one who IS the head of the church will. Like I said earlier on, wait and see. God Himself deals with false teachers and churches who teach sin is acceptible. Any evidence of this? Well, since the UCC was formed by the merger of the Congregational Church and Evangelical Reformed Churches (if I got the names right) back in the 50s, it has been the touting this modernistic weird philosophy. So have they been blessed by God for their "new revelation"? They are among the leaders.... in church membership decline (14+% if I recall the statistic correctly). Interestingly enough, their colleages who share their leadership in decline, are like-minded philosophies who have chosen to embrace world philosophy in exchange for Biblical truth.
     
  13. Jul 9, 2005 #233 of 284
    pjmrt

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    A mightly peculiar link, and not one that really backs up what you say in the first line. I've known strippers who have been saved. Guess what, they go back into the strip clubs to tell their friends what Christ had done for them. No where did the "article" (using the word loosely (not losely) - it has the credibility of perhaps the National Inquirer... maybe that high, maybe not) does it say John Paulk claimed he was wrong about homosexual behavior or that he even engaged in homosexual behavior from the article. Come on Danny, you'll have to try harder to discredit people God has delivered.
     
  14. Jul 9, 2005 #234 of 284
    KingLoop

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    While repentance is not the "core" to salvation, it is the "core" to forgiveness. Scripture says to turn away from sin, e.g. repent. Without repentance there is no forgiveness. With out forgiveness there is no salvation.
     
  15. Jul 9, 2005 #235 of 284
    jonstad

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    So by changing water into wine, was Jesus an "enabler"? Or didn't they have alcoholics back then? Or were they just barred from weddings?
     
  16. Jul 9, 2005 #236 of 284
    Geronimo

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    No. An enabler is someone who do things for an alcohloiic that they could or should be doing for themselves. Someone who "enables" the alcoholic to drink without consequence.

    Turning water into wine is clearly not doing the something the alcoholic coud do for himself. It has nothing to do with the consequences of the alcoholic's actions. In other words the bartender is not strictly speaking an enabler (though they should not serve someone who is obviosuly drunk) but the friend who calls in sick for them or the boss or sopuse that looks the other way is.
     
  17. Jul 9, 2005 #237 of 284
    RichW

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    Scripture does encourage us to turn away from sin, but also tells us that we all are constant sinners. Nowhere in the Gospels of Christ do I find any legalistic preconditions for salvation. For Christians, the path to salvation is simple - accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and heaven is yours. These other things are all human embellishments by religions.

    For example, I was a Catholic. We were told, by papal decree, that eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin, just as serious in God's eye as committing murder. I always felt bad for my meat-eating Protestant friends who were going to hell. Now, of course, it is no longer a sin. I hope those people who died without confessing that they ate meat on Friday got pardoned and are now in heaven. :)

    More recently, I was told by my LC-MS pastor that my Masonic membership put me in a constant state of sin and I needed to demit my Masonic memberships in order to get to heaven (and stay as a member of the congregation). I quit the LS-MS church instead and since I contributed about 20% of that churches income, that particular church is folding.

    I no longer believe that eating meat on Friday is a sin, I don't believe that those who are divorced are in a state of sin, I don't believe Masons are in a state of sin, and I don't believe that committed same sex couples are in a state of sin. On the other hand, I believe that killing people, even in war, is a sin. I believe exploiting others for profit is a sin (I commit that sin often, but try to mitigate it)

    Your own mileage, of course, may vary - which is why we Christians have so many factions and schisms.

    But in the end (no pun intended) it doesn't matter whether they are sins or not. Faith in Jesus is all that God asks of us Christians. That is the Gospel Truth!
     
  18. Jul 9, 2005 #238 of 284
    Bogy

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    I'm not going to sway you either. Your mind is made up. I used to think all homosexuality was a sin. But after considerable research on this topic I have come to an understanding that the verses that have been quoted in this thread are not talking about committed, consensual relationships between two adults of the same sex. They deal with rape, pedophilia, and sex with slaves and prostitutes. I don't see committed relationships as being sin. My sorrow is that gays have developed the promiscuous lifestyle they have to a large extent because they have not been allowed to enter into long term committed relationships. That is the sinful lifestyle that harms individuals and society, whether homosexual or heterosexual.

    I became a part of the UCC after the merger in 1957. What the UCC and other denominations which merged at about that time have experienced is that unless the denominations are extremely similar, such as two Lutheran denominations, the new denomination will end up being as big as the larger of the two denominations prior to the merger, while many people leave because of the loss of identity, and associated reasons. Thats why you just don't see many denominations merge anymore. We found out it doesn't work, and takes an incredible amount of energy trying to put out all the brush fires. I'm in my second conference in which church camps had to be sold because each side came into the merger with camps and they couldn't all continue to be supported. One of the camps that was sold was just north of the town I now live in, and members of the church donated the land. It's been 20-30 years, and people in the church are still bitter about it. We found that it is better to work with partner churches in ministry, and not to try to merge.

    As far as the "modernistic, weird philosophy", that is nothing knew. What was similar between the Congregational Church and the Christian Church, which became the Congregational Christian Church, and the German Evangelical and the German Reformed Churches which became the Evangelical and Reformed Church is that they were all progressive. All these denominations were anti-slavery/pro-freedom, when it wasn't a popular stand. They ordained women long before other denominations did. Many of the members were anti-war during many of the conflicts this nation has been involved in, including the world wars. They, and the UCC after its formation, were very involved in the Civil Rights movement. These may not seem like much to people all wound up about gay marriage, but at the times of each event, it caused the same kind of consternation. Each time some people left. But each time justice was more important to the denomination than membership.

    I find it funny that in this thread the UCC has been accused of taking this stand to pander to the world and gain members and money. Yet as pjmrt has pointed out, it hasn't made us hugely popular and filled the pews. Actually, it seems to be conservative churches that are growing (at least according to some statistics.) It would seem that it must be conservative churches that are pandering to what the world wants to hear. The world wants to hear that others are worse than they are. They want to hear the certainty that they are the ones God approves of. At least in this country they want to hear that the U.S. is the nation God has chosen to replace Israel. That sounds like pandering to me. Raising money in support of gay marriage is a tough sell, but raising money to combat the evil forces tearing apart our nation by marrying gays is a slam dunk. Pandering to the world. Prophets are not honored in their own land, while they are alive. Prophets who tell the people they have to change, that they must take care of the poor and powerless do not have huge congregations. They may speak to huge numbers of people, but then they have to run and hide because the people don't like the message. If the UCC is evil and sinful, and evil and sin are so popular and attract people like honey attracts flies, why isn't it working? But it seems to be working for you. :lol:
     
  19. Roger

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    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Deu 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

    Jdg 19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
    Jdg 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
    Jdg 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

    1Ki 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
    1Ki 22:46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

    This makes me sick. These people are sinners and need to repent so that they may have eternal life. Instead of helping these people out they are condemning them to a possible eternity in Hell by accepting them instead of correcting them. I have no use for any organized religion because it’s nothing but a bunch of crap filled with lies, deception, and the traditions of men instead of preaching His Word and saving souls.

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    So what does the UCC and others like it do when they marry these sinners instead of telling them to repent and be washed by the blood of Christ? They are evildoers and are not of the God and Jesus of the Bible but are false prophets: the blind leading the blood
    and their punishment will be worst than the sinners that they condemn.

    1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
    1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
    1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
    1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
    1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
    1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
    1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

    Come out of the whore (modern day corporate churches) and read the Bible and start your own Bible groups or Churches instead of listening to some unordained Vietnam draft-dodger who went to seminary to avoid the draft.

    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

    We are all sinners and need to repent. We need to read His Word on our own and the best English version is the KJV not newer copyrighted versions. Who in the hell has the balls to change the Bible and then copyright it for profit? Woe unto you. KJV is not perfect but with that and A Strong’s you’ll be a hell of a lot better off than listening to a false prophet teaching from a copyrighted piece of crap.
     
  20. AllieVi

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    Who says it's not perfect?
     
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