Viability of C-Band

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Bigg, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    While I'm all for the numbers as EE, in my real life made it with huge difference in signal during thunderstorms when I switched 1M Ku dish to 3.2M, I got no outage at all so far, but big and long duration rain season is coming … will see it for final verdict.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  2. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    There are a lot of C-Band dishes still out there from many years ago, that would just need a new receiver if providers were to provide any decent amount of C-Band programming.
     
  3. AntAltMike

    AntAltMike Hall Of Fame

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    Why would anyone want to use one? You have to move it any time you want to change channels to one on another satellite. Someone would have to either revive 4DTV and work around the single receiver limitation, or set up a whole new business with redundant uplink transmissions of services that are conveniently available to prospective customers through other means.

    What would "critical mass" be to sustain such a business? 2 million subscribers? 5 million? How many could possibly be brought back into the fold? 100,000?
     
  4. slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Ku doesn't take as big of a hit - the 50 db + number I mentioned was for Ka. Plus going from 1m to 3.2m is about a 10 db gain, a lot better than what you get going to Directv's AK/HI dish.

    Very few people would be willing to have a 10 foot dish in their backyard (let alone on their roof) unless they lived in a pretty rural area. Even if it was free and guaranteed 100% rain fade free performance.
     
  5. Rich

    Rich DBSTalk Club DBSTalk Club

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    I know a guy that says he still uses his big dish. Don't know how or why, didn't ask.

    Rich
     
  6. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    A new receiver for $749 ($699 with programming commitment)? Assuming everything else worked and was compatible with the new receiver that is still a lot of money.

    Not enough to sustain a system.
     
  7. KyL416

    KyL416 Hall Of Fame

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    Plus, like I mentioned in the other thread not everyone is using PowerVU, there's multiple other incompatible encryption methods in use by a bunch of major broadcasters for their master C-Band feeds, so you would likely need multiple receivers. And that doesn't even begin to include the channels that require their own custom receiver firmware from ESPN, Fox, NBCU or Turner so they can control sports blackouts remotely. And in some cases, they also require that its inputs are connected to multiple satellites (i.e. Fox requires that their receivers are connected to Galaxy 15 odd/even on ports 1 and 2 and Galaxy 17 odd/even on ports 3 and 4)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  8. AntAltMike

    AntAltMike Hall Of Fame

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    I remember when Washington, DC Sports HTS went from analog to digital and used PowerVU, and WSNet got us a "deal" on used Power receivers for $400 less than what they cost new. I think they were from a system that Galavision had abandoned. Anyway, it turns out that they were registered in something called a "security pool" of receivers and we either had to get those receivers taken out of the pool and/or had to then get them entered into it under the new account, and so we couldn't use them until we got a notarized letter from the previous owner saying they had sold the receiver. As you can imagine, my discount priced Power-Vu receiver went back to the seller.
     
  9. AntAltMike

    AntAltMike Hall Of Fame

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  10. NashGuy

    NashGuy Active Member

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    Wrong. Had the same problem with both Dish and DirecTV (and they had mounted their dishes on different sides of my house). Problem was worse with Dish but I still had it after I switched to DirecTV. I called and complained after awhile and DirecTV sent out a tech who took several measurements and concluded that the dish was properly aligned to get peak signal and that there was nothing that could be done to improve the situation.

    Folks like to imagine that their situation with a given service provider is typical and there are plenty of DBS fanboys on this forum who apparently have little issue with rain fade and so believe that it just isn't a problem inherent to the technology. I'm not saying that my situation was typical but I know that rain fade isn't a "non-issue".
     
  11. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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  12. dreadlk

    dreadlk Hall Of Fame

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    Not sure how you came by the $4000 figure. Even new equipment can be had for less!

    You can get into FTA for a couple of hundred bucks.
    I cannot count how Many Perfect 10 dishes I have been offered for free if I just remove it. That includes a jack and stand plus an old 922 receiver.

    Just add in the labor fee and a new FTA receiver
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    From a C-Band satellite dealer who I'd rather not promote. $4400 for a complete system including the 1st year of programming (listed on their website as 24 channels). Sure one can do FTA for less but we're not talking about free channels. We are talking about subscription channels.
     
  14. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    No re-compression. Currently you can only get no re-compression on Google Fiber TV, which is only in a couple of cities.

    Why do they need critical mass? Rainier Satellite already has the equipment available, content providers just need to allow them to sell it, unless a lot of channels are using some other weird encryption scheme that's not PowerVu or CA-Plus. All the feeds are up there for cable, DBS, IPTV, and OTT providers to pull down anyway.

    Rainier Satellite has NESN and a handful of other channels. Although NESN probably isn't very popular in your area. :D

    That's unfortunate that there is such a lack of standardization. It's not quite the same, but it sounds like 720/1080i, where many channels are still using the inferior 720p format when 1080i is clearly better for today's TVs.

    If you had more than a few minutes of outages at a time, your dish wasn't aligned properly. DISH has more rain fade issues than DirecTV.
     
  15. JoeTheDragon

    JoeTheDragon Hall Of Fame

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    well dish and direct do have ESPN, Fox, NBCU or Turner feeds that do not get swapped + alts and they let them do blackouts at the local tv box level.
    att uverse seems have a mix of cable and satellite controlled feeds for sports.
     
  16. KyL416

    KyL416 Hall Of Fame

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    Even though they are national providers, they still control the blackouts remotely in real time via integration with DirecTV and Dish's systems.

    That's not the point though, we're talking about individual residential C-Band subscribers where they will enforce the blackouts. NESN's the oddball for the C-Band company in question, however instead of individual blackouts, people out of market only have access to the seperate NESN National feed through that company. The other channels don't operate like that, instead they only have the main in market metro feeds on C-Band and the out of market blackouts are handled on the fly by the channel forcing the receivers to remotely switch to alternate feeds.

    Check the last part of my reply in the other thread, it's not some "weird" encryption scheme, for most major broadcasters that I listed in that reply it's the nextgen version of Arris's Digicipher that isn't backwards compatible with the previous Digicipher II that was used with 4DTV. Even HITS Quantum, who was the alternate source of channels when their master feeds were no longer available during the last part of the 4DTV era, now uses it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  17. JoeTheDragon

    JoeTheDragon Hall Of Fame

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    NESN National feed is not on dish / directv
     
  18. KyL416

    KyL416 Hall Of Fame

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    That's because NESN controls the blackouts remotely for Dish/DirecTV, who also uses the in market feed to supply content for the out of market packages, so there's no need to carry the national feed for out of market viewers. Compared to the out of market cable providers who only carry the national feed where they don't have to worry about blackouts since the sports packages are supplied by the seperate GAME and TEAM feeds from iNDemand.

    And again, we're NOT talking about serving a nationwide MVPD here, so what Dish/DirecTV does has NOTHING to do with it. We're talking about delivering/authorizing master C-Band feeds to INDIVIDUAL residential users who only have ONE C-Band dish attached to a motor. In other words, their dish will NOT be pointed to the control feeds 24/7 to receive the information and forced retuning for blackouts in real time. The only way it will work for individual subscribers is if they put a dish farm on their property and have the specified ports on individual receivers for those channels connected to dishes pointed to the appropriate satellites 24/7. (i.e. even though Fox has their channels and feeds scattered across multiple satellites and transponders, the real time control signal comes from Galaxy 15, Transponder 21)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  19. Bigg

    Bigg Godfather

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    Oy vey. It's not the primary reason pay tv is in a downward spiral, or even a blip on the radar but this kind of outdated blackout crap certainly doesn't help live televised sports, and represented the obsolete, backwards thinking of the whole industry. There's no good reason to be blacking anything out except that they are based on greedy, technologically obsolete business models. This is a parallel to why pay IS dying, the bloated mess of a bundle that is built around late 1970's cable TV technology that was made obsolete in the 2000's, but has lived on like a Zombie that needs to die. In terms of C-Band, the content providers would be just fine if they didn't enforce blackouts on C-Band. If a few sports nuts get C-Band just to get blackout-free sports, good for them for dropping $5k on a 12' dish in their backyard. Online pirate streams are a much bigger threat to their business model than people paying for the feeds on a giant dish.


    It doesn't really help Rainier, but why on earth did the channels re-invent the wheel with a bunch of incompatible encryption schemes instead of sticking with the original encryption used with 4DTV? It's not like this is personal data where the stakes are high if it's cracked, it's just authorizing TV channels. It's an administrative task, not a security task. Obviously they can't put the feeds up in the clear, as people would just pull them down for free, but some basic, standardized encryption would more than serve the purpose at hand.

    Of course the next logical question is, why couldn't Cisco and Rainier make a 2019 model box that could handle all of these oddball, incompatible encryption schemes? Processing power is cheap these days, so having a bunch of different hardware decoders shouldn't be that hard, except for the fact that it's a niche, low-volume market.
     
  20. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Now think of critical mass. Receivers at satellite and cable head ends do not need to receive all flavors or all channels. They need to receive one. The Fox receiver being special and requiring four inputs to produce one channel for the market adds to the complication. But is is a complication that can be handled in ONE dedicated receiver per head end. The myriad of different encryptions doesn't matter in a system where the headend is going to install one receiver per channel regardless of if they used the same encryption or not.

    To create a receiver that did it all for home use would require working with all the proprietary encryption schemes. A lot of work for a receiver that is NOT needed for the primary marketplace (satellite/cable headends). So you are going to need to find enough subscribers to buy the thing to make it affordable and worth the effort to develop.

    The blackouts come from the way sports are sold in this country. Exclusive rights within a market and no rights outside of a market for the RSNs. Rant on to the end of eternity, that is the way that major sports has chosen to sell its content.
     

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