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Discussion in 'DISH™ High Definition Discussion' started by Citivas, Aug 12, 2008.
1080i=1080p on any decent 1080p display.
If 1080i is effectively the same as 1080p and if most people won't care because they don't have 1080p sets yet why is Dish bothering to spend millions making a big deal about the 1080p "True HD" service in the first place? Whether it is perception or reality is beside the point. Either way Dish thought it was important enough to hype.
Ignorant people are swayed by marketing... "P" is higher than "I", so they sign up, or just the word "Turbocharged" is perceived value. They're doing so much marketing just to add subs, they don't really care that what they are marketing is meaningless. Gets a lot of folks looking... they sucked me in - with the "HD" not the "P" (and the lower cost).
That's how they sucked me in
The PQ should be better then regular broadcast HD because it is downloaded content and not streamed. That means there should be less compression.
Dish 1080p is VOD only, no streaming or recording of regular channels in 1080p, as a matter of fact no 1080p on any regular channels.
Reports are that the VOD is 1920X1080p24.
Aah... but by that assumption, you think they reserved enough space on our DVR's hard drives to give us minimally compressed, high bitrate content? :nono2:
Directv said in all their adverting that the new HD channels would be coming online in the summer of 2007. They were delayed by a month because of an unforeseen problem, namely the sea launch rocket exploding and delaying ALL Sat launches which is completely out of anyone's control. Dish has been the victim of the same issue with the failure of one of their new sats to reach orbit earlier this year. That has kept them from adding some channels they way they wanted.
Also to note, one of the main reasons to switch boxes early on is that any sub in a LIL HD market had to have them starting in 2005 to receive any HD LIL channels. The only 2 markets that didn't have that issue where LA and NY for their DNS feeds, however, they were also lit up on the Spaceway sats in MPEG-4 giving them better pic quality for just LA and NY.. and more LIL channels...
Um, what programing teirs did they change? They moved like 2 channels into a separate $5 tier, and all the others they add you received for the same $10 that you had always been paying to get the HD channels, so I don't understand where that is coming from. (and they only add a couple new channels to that $5 tier too... over 90% of HD comes from the regular $10 a month HD access fee....)
And dish changes packages every 6 months, and cable rates are a min $13 after locals in my area... What are the rates in your area, and what how many channels do they have? ANd more importantly, how many more do they plan to add in the next 2 years or so? How long before they go to switched digital?
And everyone's prices go up yearly...
As for the Tivo, I worked for a retailer selling Tivo HD boxes, and they were not the product that Directv was pushing, it was the product all the retailers where pushing because they new they wouldn't work with the new channels in a couple years.. and oh yeah, Directv is swapping all those Tivo units out for free.... And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't dish doing the exact same thing, swapping out all the MPEG-2 only HD boxes for MPEG-4 HD boxes? And guess what, I think something is going to be happening in cable land too, for them to be able to go to switched digital... So that is the nature of the business, something new comes out making the old thing that was top notch yesterday obsolete and virtually unusable... That especially happens with 1st generation products, which the HD Tivo boxes were...
Again, which Directv has been working its way through and offering upgrades to anyone with MPEG-2 HD equipment, which covers a lot more than just the HD tivo boxes, and again, just as I believe Dish has done...
They said all along on the postcards and mailings that it would be 1st quarter of 2008.. It was a quarter late, but guess what.. Directv has nothing to do with upgrading those units other than putting their stamp of approval on it... It was Tivos job, so they are the ones who dropped the ball... Directv had that function on their boxes in the first quarter, so obviously they had their end (website) ready to go on time. Just like they are completely failing at integrating their Tivo software into Cable companies HD boxes nationwide... Talk about late, we are over a year past the stated launch date, and only a couple markets have launched, and they have experienced lots of issues...
The only thing I know of that Directv didin't deliver on was some HD LIL markets...
You find what Directv has done unethical? Wow... Of all the advertising being done by Dish, Directv and Cable, Directv is the least over promising and misleading that I have seen, followed closely second by Dish, (although up until this month I'd have said they were tied. They shouldn't have added VOD to their HD channel counts) Cable is the biggest flat out liar there is in my area for advertising.. and that's up against anything, not just pay tv...
Its unfortunate that you had a bad install... That can turn anyone off, but that can and does happen with cable and Dish too...
In my area, cable always gives you awsome 3 month deals to lure you in, but then after that the fees are through the roof, and you end up paying a minumum 150% more for tv than Directv... And thats with discounts for triple play.. I have Vonage, DSL and Directv and 6 HD boxes... I pay about $60 less a month than if I had the exact same with my cable company, after the intial offer...
In the end, you need to do what your comfortable with, but I'd have to say that you should read all the fine print before you make a switch.. No one is perfect, but if one of your main beefs is with ethics, I can't fathom how anyone would find cable better in that department than Directv or Dish..
Here is what I would do if I where you... Double check how much cable will cost you in 6 months to a year per month, and look into dumping cable and going dsl and vonage... Then if you want to give them a shot, suspend your account and have them install Dish or cable, and see if you like it, before you cancel anything... That way you don't back yourself into a corner on anything...
The only reason I am replying is because it sounds like you want to change because of how Directv advertises, and then you find the same issues with Dish... and I just want to let you know in my area, cable is thousands times worse, and from what I read, that doesn't change anywhere in the nation...
By the way, in my area.... HD (all 10 channels plus my locals) is $13, plus $15 for DVR capability, plus $5 for my 1st HD DVR box.. Thats right, $33 for 17 HD channels and 1 HDDVR...
First off, it wasn't just 2 channels - secondly they did this AFTER they told all their customers that they wouldn't be raising prices due to all the new HD channels. The implication was very clear that customers would be paying the same as they were paying before. The creation of a new tier - having to pay an extra $5 per month for channels you were already getting - after saying they wouldn't raise prices is sleezy. How many people signed up for DirecTV in anticipation of those new HD channels? Lock into a nice 2 year contract, based on the promises that what you're paying now will stay the same after these channels are aded, only to find out that that's not true. Again, I think that's just plain sleezy. If DirecTV were more up-front about that, it wouldn't be an issue.
Also, part of the OP's beef (and I do think this is legit) is the fact that they were still selling the HR10 (tivo HD DVR) to customers, with the implication that those DVRs would work just fine in the future, only to totally revamp their architecture, requiring that those same customers now shell out an extra $100 - $300 (depending on the deal you got) for a new HD DVR, plus a nice new 2 year commitment. I think customers who went for the HR10 in the summer of 2006 really got screwed.
I thought all the HR10 customers are getting calls and emails for free swaps?
Some did, from what I understand. But, again based on my understanding, you still had to shell out some money - I don't think it was a one-for-one swap. And it still extended your contract.
I have no issue with DirecTV revamping their architecture like that - they needed to do that. But to charge customers as much as they did for the HR10, knowing full well the changes they were making at that time, was, in my opinion, sleezy. If they had compensated all those customers and told them they could get an HR20 for free, with no extension of their contract, that would be one thing.
BTW, none of this applied to me. I never had HD with DirecTV. In April 2007 I got my first HD TV. I wanted HD service. DirecTV wanted $300 for the HR20 (plus s&h). I still nearly went for it, but decided to look around instead (which led me to FiOS TV). All I can say is that if I had gone for it, I would have been just as ticked as the OP at that point. Why? Because of the new HD tier that they added. Not only would I have been out $300 for the equipment, but I'd be locked into a new contract at that point. To find out that their statement that they didn't see the need to raise prices on their HD offerings, only to have the creation of a new HD tier, requiring more money from me would have seriously ticked me off. I would have entered into that agreement with one understanding.
Granted, DirecTV has the right to raise prices - but don't have one of your senior officers, in an interview, tell the world 'we don't see the need to raise prices' only to turn around, a couple months later, to do that very thing. This wasn't something unknown to DirecTV at that time. The time difference between that statement and when they created that new tier was only a couple months, and they were well into their negotiations for the creation of these new HD channels.
BTW, anyone who doesn't see the creation of this new tier as raising prices - that's like Breyers telling me that they didn't raise the price of their ice cream - it's the same price it's been for years! Except that you now get 25% less in the package (I still find myself referring to those as 'gallons of ice cream'.)
Edit - one more point - inkahauts mentioned that:
"And guess what, I think something is going to be happening in cable land too, for them to be able to go to switched digital..."
with regard to forcing customers to swap out boxes. While that will undoubtedly be true, there's one tiny little difference with this - cable doesn't charge you up front for those boxes, and they don't require a contract. Look, if I voluntarily upgrade equipment and I'm required to pay an up-front fee, and add to my contract that's one thing. But to be forced to do that because of an architectural change by my paid TV service provider is something else entirely. I would be required to seriously extend my contract because of changes THEY'RE forcing on me.
In reply to some of INKAHAUTS points:
1) You are giving DirecTV way to much credit in saying they always told everyone the program change would be in the Summer of 2007. Do you assume everyone goes online and finds official statements or forums of informed early adopters? Because I guarantee you not only were many (probably most) of the salespeople not saying that, but when pointedly asked they were saying very different answers. I vividly recall the unsolicited call I got from DirecTV during dinner saying that I had been a great customer and as a result they wanted to upgrade me to the TiVo 10-250 box (they didn’t call it that – they just said “DirecTV’s new HD digital video recorder”) and upgrade my satellite dish for a ‘small fee’ ($199, versus the much higher rate the boxes were selling in at Best Buy, etc.) in anticipation of the upcoming dramatic expansion of their HD service to become the HD leader in the industry. This was FALL 2005! I asked when this expansion would occur and the person said, “starting by early next year (2006), with gradual additions and that by the end of 2006 they would have over 100 channels. I personally knew a little about the whole MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4 thing at the time so I pointedly asked if the new box they were sending would work with all the new HD channels when they came out. Yes, of course, they said. I said, how was that possible given the MPEG-4 issue. They had never heard of it but put me on hold and came back after “talking to a supervisor” and said they would be sending a software upgrade to make it work. Frankly I was skeptical of both their timing and compatibility claims at the time, but I’m sure there were many other customers who had less reason to doubt them.
2) They moved channels we had been getting as token placeholders to a special extra fee tier as soon as they added the new ones despite telling many people they would not change the HD cost once we finally got the service we had been promised for so long. It doesn’t matter to me how many or that they added others it was the principle of saying one thing and doing another. I’ve been a customer since they were below $30 / month (and didn’t start raising the fees for YEARS, as opposed to more than annually now) so I understand price increases. That’s not the point. The point is they need to be responsible for what their official agents (salespeople, CSR’s, etc.) are telling and promising people and not be deceptive. Even if they had changed those channels 6 months later I would not have had an issue. It was the immediate change that reinforced their pattern of total disregard for commitments. Clearly from the other posts I’m not the only one who was sold that song and dance from DirecTV.
3) As for your comment that you know DirecTV was “not pushing the Tivo’s” only the retailers were, I don’t know what to say since that is totally false. I have the paperwork to prove it since when THEY CALLED ME they tied my discounted 10-250 to a new membership commitment of course. They were aggressively pushing those boxes in 2005.
4) As for “all is forgiven” because they are gradually calling people now to offer them the new box, that may be true but I don’t see why it nullifies the false sale, especially when they made people pay hundreds for the previous box are making many people (since everyone gets a different offer with DirecTV and they like to deny they are even doing the offers they are giving others) pay for the new box too AND return the old box they already paid for AND only have the new box as a “lease” despite paying up-front for it AND sign-up for two more years to get it. Hardly a “make good” on the original sale that the TiVo boxes would work with the new service.
5) As for the new Tivo features being late is Tivo’s fault, I don’t care. Even if it had been launched in Q1 2008, it was stupid to send postcards promoting the features in mid-2007. I actually did read the postcards fine print at the time and posted on the DirecTV forums even then (i.e. before they were late) about how lame it was. Why do you need to send me a proactive announcement of vaporware 9+ months before you expect to launch it, especially when its only a minor upgrade of a couple features? I remember dropping by TiVo’s room at CES this January and asking them about it and they were totally annoyed DirecTv had sent that. They admitted at the time the product development hadn’t even started on the features yet when they sent it and as of January they still had no idea when it was going to be ready. From their stated POV, DirecTV had held up their product upgrades on the boxes for years then suddenly releases this contracted upgrade and promotes it before they even start it. It would be amazing to paint DirecTV as a totally innocent party here.
6) First, I stated that I was disappointed by Dish’s exaggerated, deceptive (which does not mean the same thing as false) promotions as well so it’s no defense of DirecTV to say the others are just as bad. But that said I have found DirecTV to be the most aggressive deceptive advertiser in my experience in the last two years. That’s just my opinion so there’s no point in debating it.
7) Cable companies are regional in the end, even when under the same corporate banner (like Comcast), so people’s experiences will be very different. I can only speak to mine. Since my company covers my high speed bills, I spend 6 months (before DirecTV could offer me HD locals) simultaneously using Comcast here. And all but one of my neighbors still does. There was no minimum commitment term, the price was not promotional and never went up nor was it about to go up at the end, and the service was great. The HD looks spectacular, still better than anything I have seen from DirecTV. My only beef was I hated their Motorola DVR. I have talked at length with my neighbors about this and Comcast hasn’t raised their package prices for them in years. So we just aren’t having the bait-and-switch issue here. But even if they did, the prices would have to go up by $70/month before it would even be break-even with my combined DirecTV/Comcast rate now…
8) I don’t just want to change just because of how DirecTV advertises and stated that in my previous reply. As a customer since the mid-90’s I am just profoundly disappointed at how much the service quality deteriorated over time. They used to be GREAT and I can’t tell you how many people I personally talked into converting. I haven’t done that in a few years. I believe the significant change is traced to News Corp’s ownership of them (and I say that as a one time News Corp employee). But whatever the reason, their CSR’s and tech support went from actually pretty good to laughable if not dangerous (in the sense that they tell people things that are often exactly wrong), their customer service went from very good to this game where they tell and offer everyone something different and have a special department where they finally route you to change their tune only when you threaten to quit (to the point it has become a game for savvy customers), while at the same time their product went from something that was profoundly better than cable (and in my opinion at the time, Dish, which had much worse receiver UI’s and features than DirecTV in the ‘90’s) to something that was neck-and-neck. Same with the pricing. So all the upside went away at the same time that the downside grew. If you are a major sports fan I can see why they still have a distinctive edge. If you really do watch some of those specific HD channels that according to the ratings almost no one else does, sure, that makes sense. But for me, there is nothing DirecTV now has that I can’t get elsewhere for less or comparable pricing and their policies do nothing to specifically value me as a long time customer so why should I give them loyalty they don’t show me? Only after all this does their deceptive practices come into play to tip the scales for me. Combined with their complete disregard for the customer service experience, it just demonstrates a cynical pattern in my opinion. So even if I assume Comcast is just as bad, that would mean it should come down to price since they would all be equally bad. And then Comcast would win.
I still don't get the beef, here. Dish "Turbo-charged" (new encoding) their service in an August "roll-out", added more HD content Aug 1, and began a roll-out if 1080p VOD to TVs that can Display true 1080p. One movie, offered at a discount, is the initial offering in a 1080p satellite downloaded VOD service that will expand over time. That's deceptive? Someone without a true 1080p TV should, maybe, consider this a good time to upgrade. And, all that with the industry's only HD only service offering, using a new marketing handle "Turbo".
I have a 1080p set. And I have I Am Legend on Blu-Ray. So why is this a good opportunity for me to switch providers? Have you actually seen the commericals? The entie focs is on how they are the industry exclusive 1080p sat service. They don't mention just one movie or the fact that it is a download "VOD" (not really true VOD) service only with 1 channel. If they had not had any 1080p programming that would have been a lie or false. They fact that they promote it as a great "good as Blu-ray" (their words) service makes it deceptive. BTW, since they are really only downloading content, its kind of beside the ppoint that they may be the only sat service with a 1080p program. I can get the same service from other providers of download content with much bigger libraries.
mind telling who you can get 1080p programming downloaded through?
In fact, American retail and service companies engage in public relations, marketing and spin.
Sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn't with cable and satellite companies.
Note: definitions from Wikipedia
Would you expect a Toyota automobile salesman to know what kind of charging waveform is used in the storage batteries for a Prius? In most cases, they probably don't know the difference between Li ion and Ni mh batteries, much less the fine technical details of how the batteries are charged.
Toyota sells cars, not a collection of components that you can pick and chose from. DISH Network sells access to television programming and leases receivers and DVRs to view it with. Anything over and above that and you should be asking questions here and not faulting DISH sales personnel for not knowing what type of rubber is used in the remote control buttons.
The versions of the ads that I've seen make reference to the fact that the 1080p content is VOD and not a satellite delivered offering. In the context of DBS satellite, VOD quite literally means via terrestrial broadband connection.
not quite, at least through E* it is downloaded to your hardrive between 1 and 9 am mountain time, via satellite, and has nothing to do with a broadband connection. There are movies available via broadband download on certain receivers through Dish Online, but that has nothing to do with VoD