Well now ("C71KW-400" Client)

Discussion in 'DIRECTV General Discussion' started by compnurd, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. Oct 26, 2017 #21 of 237
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If commercial skipping is not allowed on current streamed feeds I would not expect them to be available on feeds buffered by a "streaming DVR". It is easy to set DRM on "On Demand" content to prevent commercial skipping. The storage location is irrelevant to whether or not skipping would be allowed.

    If you want commercial skipping look at the source. Ask if the source will allow skipping.

    That being said, for users with a slow or limited internet connection a local DVR for streaming would come in handy. Pre-buffered content could be downloaded slowly and played back in higher quality and no pauses for buffering. Or downloaded during off peak times. Plus one download could be replayed multiple times (within the limits set by DRM).

    (And no, I do not believe that the C71KW-400 is a DVR.)
     
  2. Oct 26, 2017 #22 of 237
    raott

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    Maybe I’m confused, but the manual itself (included in the FCC filing) refers to this box as an OTT client. Why blame the Variety writer?

    ATTC71KW Wireless STB User Manual Wistron NeWeb Corporation


     
  3. Oct 27, 2017 #23 of 237
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    OTT client is one of its functions, not the sole function. It also supports RVU, think about why that would be if it is only an OTT client.
     
  4. Oct 27, 2017 #24 of 237
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I wish the manual was clearer. Terminology defined but then not used (except for OTT). "RUI"? Errors and omissions that leave a lot of room for speculation.
     
  5. Oct 27, 2017 #25 of 237
    raott

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    No idea. I was simply responding to the point I put in bold, that you didn't know why the "stupid" Variety writer called it an OTT unit.....that is what the manufacturer called it in the manual,

    The manual also makes no mention of RVU.....unless RUI is a new name for RVU. I think there are many questions, more than answers about what this does.

     
  6. Oct 27, 2017 #26 of 237
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    "The RVU protocol (RVU, a pseudo-acronym pronounced "R-view"[1]) is an Application Layer protocol, that combines the pre-existing Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) standards and a new Remote User Interface (RUI) protocol, which works similar to Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP). The RVU RUI protocol is intended to allow an RVU-enabled client, such as a TV, to receive a pixel-accurate display of the user interface available on an RVU server."
    RVU protocol - Wikipedia
     
  7. Oct 27, 2017 #27 of 237
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Big big difference. First I’m not talking on demand, I’m talking about live str am being recorded. And there’s all sorts of issues as we know as to what companies can do with cloud DVRs and how they store programs versus someone’s home DVR. Cloud DVR has time limits usually, where as my home DVR only time limit is when it dies. We have seen how DIRECTV’s likes to prefer on demand versions of programs rather than the version recorded to your DVR when streaming something you have r corded on your DVR. So yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised if anything streamed from a cloud DVR had a better chance of being locked down and no commercial skipping vs one that records a live stream in your home.
     
  8. Oct 27, 2017 #28 of 237
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    I just read the manual. Who knows... I still have reservations thinking this is a new genie system for satelite though. But maybe it is. It almost sounds like it can do 4 Hi Definition pictures on screen like dish does too.
     
  9. Oct 28, 2017 #29 of 237
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you're right, it does say it supports single dual or quad display - its the "super client" I suggested way back when Directv could introduce to compete with Hopper's sports bar mode! Should also bring back PiP for those who missed it. Do you really think they'd introduce an OTT only box able to do PiP and quad display, when their more expensive satellite product only supports a single screen? That seems highly unlikely to me.

    I'll draw your attention to a couple other things since I looked at the manual in more detail. It says it won't work with existing Genie systems...why say "existing" if it isn't designed to work with any Genie systems? Especially when they mention the "future HS27" in the very next sentence! If this thing was designed to be able to grab four streams from the server, it makes sense it isn't going to work with just any Genie, but need one that was designed to serve four streams to one client.

    There's also something else I noticed in another document when this was originally posted that I didn't really think about until now. There are two products that are identical, the C71KW and C71KWBP. The C71KW fits in with Directv's naming scheme for Genie clients, but I wonder what 'BP' indicates. Broadband Product? Who knows.

    The manual is obviously missing a lot of detail, such as how to configure the ethernet, or why a wireless client even has ethernet. Interestingly it says it is 10/100, when almost all PHYs sold today are gigabit. Talk about penny pinching!
     
  10. Oct 28, 2017 #30 of 237
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Well why would a client ever need more than 100? It will never need more than that...

    And yeah I’ve wondered about it having two model numbers as well. Maybe two different things. And sometimes manuals aren’t accurate...

    What puzzles me most is if it is a RVU capable device then there is zero reason it shouldn’t work with existing genies. RVU is simply a standard of showing a GUI on a remote device. So there has to be more to this.
     
  11. Oct 29, 2017 #31 of 237
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    nope
    not that simple as you "knew"
    I did a quote in post#26, seems to me you missed it ... well then again:
     
  12. Oct 29, 2017 #32 of 237
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    I agree it will never need more than 100, I'm sure surprised anyone is even still making 10/100 only PHYs.

    It is RVU capable but it will work differently than existing clients if it doesn't support having apps served from the server, but rather handling them itself, so there would be a support cost in making it happen. It isn't that it CAN'T work with older Genies, it is just Directv's decision similar to how they decided if you get an HS17 you can't have any other receivers. Zero technical reason, it is that way because that's how they want it.

    And RVU isn't really and never was a "standard", because Directv is the only one using it. The RVU Alliance is over, the site says that "having fulfilled its mission" it is dissolving and transitioned certification operations to the Consumer Technology Association. If you go to the CTA site and look for RVU, the RVU group has had no meetings, produced no documents, done nothing at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  13. Oct 29, 2017 #33 of 237
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    You are not paying attention. DRM, digital rights management, allows DIRECTV and other providers to place restrictions on programs that go beyond your expectations of "if it is saved on the DVR in my home I can watch it forever". It doesn't matter if the source is a satellite channel, an on demand forced download via satellite, a requested on demand download, streaming or if DIRECTV delivered the content via carrier pigeon on a USB drive. The rights can be set.

    Do not expect the rights to be any more lenient for streamed to an in home DVR than streamed to a cloud DVR. And certainly do not expect DIRECTV to design and deliver an in home "streaming DVR" for the purpose of allowing customers to skip commercials in streamed content where commercial skipping is not allowed.
     
  14. Oct 29, 2017 #34 of 237
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    I dont care about drm in this instance. If they wanted they could lock out the ability to skip commercials right now on all DVRs, even live recordings, I’m not discussing their ability to do things, I am discussing what they are doing now with their iPad app and how it can be looked at as a road map for their cloud DVR down the line.

    No there is a huge difference. For one look up what happened in New York for some background in what they have to do for a cloud DVR for cable. No one copy fits all. Do you really think they want to not have one copy instead of having to store millions of copies of the same thing? This begets a big issue... on the contracts side anyway between providers and producers, and who knows where it will end up, it’s constantly in flux right now.

    But the real issue is they could easily be cutting deals that say if someone records something on the cloud DVR, it will simply be the on demand version, not a copy of the live stream, which forces commercials. But if you allow a live streaming channel to be recorded in the home, go ahead and do with it what you will on a Home DVR as long as it protects our content like your sat DVR does.

    Nothing is written in stone either way. There is no guarantee either way. But based on how they work their iPad app with remote recordings and defaulting to an on demand version first when it’s available it’s something I suspect is in the offing for their cloud DVR.
     
  15. Oct 30, 2017 #35 of 237
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    This is what I am talking about. The claim that with a hardware DVR one could ALWAYS skip commercials. Not "more likely to be able to" skip but some expectation that a DVR in the home means always skipable commercials.

    Since one cannot always skip commercials on current hardware DVRs I do not see that restriction lifted in the future.

    One will pay for content through subscription or advertising. The way the industry is going I expect both will be required for most content worth watching ... With only premium services delivering content without interruptions. Perhaps with lead in advertising that cannot be skipped if the distributor wants the extra income.
     
  16. Oct 30, 2017 #36 of 237
    slice1900

    slice1900 Well-Known Member

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    Technically they could, but they can't as a practical manner because if they did then they'd lose tons of customers to other providers who permit commercial skipping. Once customers get used to something, it is difficult to take it away.

    Streaming is a new service - still in its infancy really - and currently it is cheaper than traditional delivery. One of the ways it may be able to remain cheaper forever is to not permit commercial skipping, or charge a fee for it.
     
  17. Oct 30, 2017 #37 of 237
    inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Personally the biggest issue to me with their current on demand offerings at DIRECTV is you can’t ffwd at all. A lot of streaming let’s you ffwd except through commercials. That tells me there’s a software and technology issue to create that kind of environment and until they can fix that I’m not concerned with DVR loosing its ability to ffwd.
     
  18. Oct 30, 2017 #38 of 237
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    They would need to encode the file with "skip/don't skip" markers or have a separate file marking the skipable segments. When in doubt "fail safe" and don't allow any skipping. :)

    When streaming the service knows where you are in the file and may even stream commercials from a separate server so they can make the commercials more relevant to the streamer and when the content is viewed. It is easier for the system to know if you are watching skipable content or those all important commercials.

    I agree that not being able to skip forward at all (not even during program content) is annoying. Sometimes I will get an on demand version of a show if I have missed the original airing due to weather or other problems (late running football leading to half recordings). If I cannot skip the parts that I have already seen it wastes my time.
     
  19. Oct 31, 2017 #39 of 237
    espaeth

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    The biggest factor is probably more for power savings to meet Energy Star thresholds. You can shave ~2 watts from the device power consumption by using 100mbps instead of 1000mbps. (it's only energizing 2 of the 4 pair in the Ethernet cable, and lower clock rates allow for more power save cycles)
     
  20. Nov 1, 2017 #40 of 237
    P Smith

    P Smith Mr. FixAnything

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    I'm not convinced at all, as Ethernet using voltage signaling around 5V DC and 100 Ohm impedance - in term of power, it has low power consumption ;
    I would start thinking about real power consumption if you're using PoE with max current.
     

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