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What's better than thousands of part-time jobs paying minimum wage or slightly more? Answer--NO jobs

Discussion in 'The OT' started by Lord Vader, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    And the IRS is about to get much larger, to the tune of at least 20,000 more employees. :eek2:
     
  2. tsmacro

    tsmacro Hall Of Fame

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    Guess it's the only growth industry we have left!
     
  3. sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    You claim Dru and myself are saying the sky is falling and then make an asinine leap to imply I'm saying minimum wage should be $30+ a hour? Ironic. You're a history scholar, so I'm confident you're aware of Ford paying his workers better. It reduced workers turnover rates.
     
  4. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    And did the government mandate Ford pay his workers better? No. Proves my point.

    As far as your saying minimum wage should be $30/hour, you said workers should be paid more because that led to more income, etc. The logical conclusion is that you want the minimum wage to be as high as it can be to squeeze out more money from the companies that will undoubtedly go bankrupt trying to pay this exorbitant minimum wage. I'm sure $30/hour isn't enough for you, which is why I asked if $50, $60, or $100 would suffice. Where does it end?
     
  5. sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    To see lists of corporations paying $0 in federal taxes is mind boggling.
     
  6. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    Which is why the tax code ought to be either overhauled or thrown out completely, replaced by something more effective.
     
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  7. sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    I didn't say $30, but it's got to be raised. From 1938 to 1968 it rose steadily with changing economics, but there's been little to no adjustment for inflation since. IMO, and I'm definitely not an economist, it should be about $11.
     
  8. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    The problem caused by raising it is that it leads to greater UNemployment among those who are most commonly minimum wage workers--those in the under 30 bracket. Eliminating it altogether would paradoxically lead to more people in these jobs making more money.
     
  9. houskamp

    houskamp Active Member

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    just do what other countries do.. tax the crap out of import stuff and give the money to your exporting companies :/
     
  10. Go Beavs

    Go Beavs Hall Of Fame

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    I see high minimum wages as a huge disservice to young people.

    I do some hiring in my position and I rarely see post-high school applicants with any job history anymore. Minimum wage here in WA state is among the highest in the nation and I believe it forces businesses to hire fewer, more experienced people to get the most "bang for the buck". That results in fewer jobs for young people. These are jobs that give experience in how to show up on time, how to follow directions, and how the way you work affects not only your own prosperity, but your co-workers as well.

    Because these young people are applying with fewer and fewer skills and experience, we hire fewer and fewer people straight from high school. The lack of these early skill building jobs makes it harder for them find better work later in life.

    Wages should be set by the market. If they are too low, you won't get any qualified applicants and business will have to raise them in order to attract the people they are looking for. The company I work for pays higher than minimum, not because it makes us feel good, but because that's what it takes to attract and retain qualified employees.
     
  11. Christopher Gould

    Christopher Gould Icon

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    I work for Walmart and if you think you can trust that corporation to pay a live able wage your crazy.
    I am a full time employee and I make a good rate per hour for the location I live, but they kill that by cutting hours. Some weeks we got 34 hours instead of 38. My tax returns can show you this. The difference between my 2010 and 2011 gross income was $40. Even though I had a .40 raise. They cut hours so bad in 2011 I only grossed $40. My directv went up $5 month that year. Do the math.
    Now on the other hand when you raise minimum wage you need to raise everyone's because prices will raise to cover this and those of us who make more than minimum are losing ground.
     
  12. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    This is such a mess of a discussion... no fault on the participants... but the topic/concept itself is such a mess and our economy is in such a state...

    It is hard to live on minimum wage in the US... BUT I have never liked what has happened with minimum wage.

    Minimum wage laws have not prevented employers/corporations from hiring people illegally below that wage, especially undocumented workers... and any increase in minimum wage to attempt to help make it more liveable only results in an eventual leveling to a new norm.

    In a perfect world, people would be paid what they are worth... and companies would recognize and reward valuable employees... you really can't legislate what is "right" in that sense... so I'm not sure what to do.

    I can definitely point my fingers at some problems... but the fixes elude me. We have a lot of people unemployed who want to work... a lot of employed people who are being overworked, under-appreciated, and underpaid... we have a lot of companies outsourcing production to foreign countries to do an end-around... and there seems to be no end in sight.

    At least part of the problem is that people at the top of the food chain are relatively isolated from major economic problems so they don't see the direct effect that bad policies and poor planning have. You or I make a budget mistake we see problems immediately... the wealthy have a delayed reaction before they see consequences in many cases... and that delays the fixes from happening that can avoid the train wreck we are heading towards now I fear.
     
  13. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, from what I have seen that's the worst thing you can do. Every time they have raised the minimum wage in California, people have lost higher paid jobs. Companies have less and less middle management because they are NOT going to even consider increasing the amount they spend on payroll, so they decrease the number of people they have, and they get more bang for their buck by deleting people making more than minimum wage. Its creating a larger and larger divide in companies between seasoned veterans of their industry and entry level people.

    Retail is a simple example. You don't have many people, who know about their stuff because no one gets paid more than minimum wage to often these days, where as it used it be the longer you where there the more you made so you had incentive to get better. That incentive is gone now.

    But signaling out way mart in this instance, and being blatantly pro union by exempting them, I can't believe wall mart isn't going to sue the city. They have the money and they should, this is so far out of bounds IMHO its massive abuse of power. They are trying to force a business to do business the way they want them to, not the way the company wants to. This isn't like a safety regulation. This is blatantly government predatory action and bias. I hope all the business just leave the area or sue. And I hate when people sue, but in this case its needed. If they didn't want wall mart around they should have set store size limits the way other towns have to protect smaller mom and pop shops, etc. that's far more acceptable to me then what this law is trying to do.
     
  14. Athlon646464

    Athlon646464 Gold Members DBSTalk Gold Club

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    Forcing the market to make what sounds to be PC decisions that 'feel right' may make you 'feel good' like many government programs do, but here are some facts:


    Between 2007 and 2009, the federal hourly minimum wage rose to $7.25 in three steps from the $5.15 rate that had prevailed for a decade. If the wage were raised to $9 and then indexed for inflation, it would rise every year.


    As a result: The unemployment rate for teens is at 23%, and the rate for unskilled workers is at 12%.

    Some seem to believe that if the minimum wage were raised and then indexed, all workers would retain their jobs. But this is not the case.

    It sounds compassionate to alleviate poverty by mandating that employers raise wages, but employers often replace low-skill workers with machines. Think self-checkout machines in supermarkets, or computerized call centers.

    Or, try a thought experiment — would you have your job if the minimum wage were $50 an hour? Probably not.

    At its current level, the minimum wage disproportionately affects teens and low-skill workers, many of whom qualify only for entry-level slots.

    University of California (Irvine) economists David Neumark and J.M. Ian Salas, together with Federal Reserve Board economist William Wascher, have written extensively on the effects of the minimum wage on employment. In a National Bureau of Economic Research paper published in January, they conclude that “minimum wages pose a tradeoff of higher wages for some against job losses for others.”

    They specifically mention that a higher minimum wage results in more unemployment for teens and low-skill workers.

    Minimum wage workers are overwhelmingly young and work part-time. See the Labor Department’s Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers.

    Two-thirds of minimum wage earners worked part-time in 2011, the latest year available. Only 3% of hourly wage earners earn minimum wage or less.

    Workers under the age of 25 made up about half of the 3.8 million workers who earned at or below the minimum wage in 2011. Employed teenagers are seven times more likely to be among the minimum wage earners than workers older than 25.

    Example: If a pizza shop owner was forced to pay his employees more per hour, he would have to raise the price of his pizza. That would in turn cause his customers to pay more for their food. For most wealthy people that would not be a problem, but for low income earners it would be. Raising the minimum wage actually hurts low income families by causing prices to rise.
     
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  15. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Supreme Member DBSTalk Club

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    But to minimum wage advocates, facts like these do not matter, because it's the "feel good" effect that matters. In other words, these people really don't care what happens in reality (they're usually oblivious to this). Instead, as long as we do things that "feel good," everything will be hunky dory. Sadly, our economy ends up paying the price for their ignorance.
     
  16. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    And those feel gooders (ones who only want to do it cause it will make them feel good, not ones with actual intelligent arguments, although I wonder if they've ever been through it either) have probably never been on the front line of any situation that shows what actually happens and had to fire someone just because the hourly wage went up. And yes, it can be done legally, its called cut their hours till they quit because they cant make nearly as much money anymore. Sure, you make an hour more an hour, but you just lost 10 hours a week on your 20 hour work week.. Hello! There's other ways to, and it happens all the time.
     
  17. djlong

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    Vader - check out Costco. They pay a living wage, offer health insurance and treat their employees like human beings. Their reward? The highest employee loyalty and productivity ratings of all their competitors.

    How can they afford to do that where Sam's (Wal Mart) and BJ's cant? The CEO isn't trying to wring every last nickel out of the customers and employees every waking moment.

    And how are those stockholders doing? Stock price is up 22% in the last 12 months.
     
  18. kc1ih

    kc1ih Legend

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    The lower wages would be a lot more palatable if we had single-payer health care. That's the killer, many people on or near minimum wage are having to spend a major part of their pay to get decent health care. And take a look in your local Walmart, it's not a bunch af under 30's, it's a lot of older people too. If you're over 50 and get laid off from a good job your chances of finding a comporable job are nil. So many of the people working in minimum-wage ar near minimum-wage jobs are people who formerly help much higher-paying jobs but can't find another one. Look at the ads for engineering jobs, they're all looking for people whey three-to-five years experience, not for people with 30 years experience. They are using the recession as an excuse to get rid of their older workers, and a lot of these people wind up in lower-paying jobs with no health care. If you have pre-existing conditions forget about affordable (to who?) health care.
     
  19. Go Beavs

    Go Beavs Hall Of Fame

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    Vader - check out Costco. They pay a living wage, offer health insurance and treat their employees like human beings. Their reward? The highest employee loyalty and productivity ratings of all their competitors.

    How can they afford to do that where Sam's (Wal Mart) and BJ's cant? The CEO isn't trying to wring every last nickel out of the customers and employees every waking moment.

    And how are those stockholders doing? Stock price is up 22% in the last 12 months.


    That's great! If they're doing great then they'll have a competitive advantage and other companies will have to follow suit to be competitive. We don't need the government to force it.
     
  20. dpeters11

    dpeters11 Hall Of Fame

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    The factory that my wife's mother worked at a few years ago hired a "productivity specialist" of some sort that recommended they go to 12x7 shifts. They apparently seriously considered it, but never implemented it. At my office, technically speaking the only break we get is lunch, but I've never seen them strictly enforce it.
     

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