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Will Roe VS Wade be overturned

Discussion in 'The OT' started by tomcrown1, Mar 6, 2006.

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  1. Mar 8, 2006 #41 of 182
    Geronimo

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    this si the full text of the equal protection clause

    "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."



    there is an "And" but that deals with jurisdiction. I am unaware of any interpretation of the clause that says it expands the defintion provied before the comma. but the equal protection clause is not the only thing at issue ina case like this. In the end, yes the issue is when life begins. After all it is not legal to murder a non US citizen even if they don't fall into that definition. So yes the issue is when does life begin and what is the state's role in this decision.


    But we are REALLY splitting hairs here guys.
     
  2. Mar 8, 2006 #42 of 182
    AllieVi

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    Society stigmatizes women who give up their children for adoption. It also saddles them with the lifelong potential of those children returning. Plenty of children exist in orphanages for those who claim they're willing to adopt.

    Society does not stigmatize women who quietly abort early-on (since it isn't even aware the procedure was done). Those women can go on to live otherwise normal lives.

    Abortion didn't spontaneously begin after Roe v Wade and it won't stop when the ruling is overturned. It's called "reality."
     
  3. Mar 8, 2006 #43 of 182
    AcuraCL

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    Absolutely true.

    Even if every state were to outlaw abortion (won't happen), we would simply see a return of the D&C procedure. I remember the days before Roe v Wade, when I would occasionally hear about women having D&Cs. Never hear about it any more.

    Funny coincidence.
     
  4. Mar 8, 2006 #44 of 182
    pjmrt

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    Society stigmatizes women who give up their children for adoption???? Where do you get that? If it stigmatizes women for anything, its being an unwed mother (or mother-to-be). So being embarrassed about making a bad choice is sufficient grounds to end a life? Also, as I understand it, the mother's identity can be completely shielded so there is very little chance they will ever see the child again if that is what they want. And if there are so many children to adopt - how come so very many people pay tens of thousands of dollars and go half-way around the world to adopt children?

    But you're right, abortion didn't begin spontaneously with RvW. It is reality, same as many other undesirable actions like spousal abuse, rape, murder, ... The argument that abortion has been around for a while and is "reality" does not make abortion right. It is simply a way to hide from one's mistakes - at least for a while -- and not necessarily to the woman's benefit. Studies suggest physical and mental health damage done by the abortion.

    Using chi-square tests for significance, women who had at least one abortion as a teen were significantly more likely to report: nightmares; flashbacks to the abortion; hysterical outbreaks; unforgiveness of those involved; feelings of guilt; fear of punishment from God; fear of harm coming upon their other children; a worsening of negative feelings about the abortion on the anniversary date of the abortion, during a later pregnancy, or when exposed to pro-choice propaganda; preoccupation with thoughts of the child they could have had; excessive interest in pregnant women; excessive interest in babies; experiencing false pregnancies; a dramatic personality change for the worse; a waking or sleeping "visitation" from the aborted child; having talked to the aborted child prior to the abortion.

    Also future labor complications are about 3X more likely if the woman has had a abortion previously, about 1.7X more likely for miscarriage, ... and the woman herself is at greater risk to dieing from an abortion (post Roe v Wade) than from childbirth (Abortion advocates who spout statistics claiming otherwise are using tainted data as abortion complications are underreported. M Crutcher was able to verify 23 deaths from induced abortion in 1992-93 from state health records, while the CDC only reported 2. Death rate from childbirth in developed countries like the US is virtually non-existent. Whether the CDC is just erring or is covering up for the abortion industry, who knows.)
     
  5. Mar 8, 2006 #45 of 182
    tomcrown1

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    Any woman in this forum?? I would like your reaction to the various post.
     
  6. Mar 8, 2006 #46 of 182
    Redster

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    As I have stated previously, I am pro choice but very much disagree with abortion used as a birth control method. You didnt mention incest/rape at all, so either you dont want to discuss those options or forcing a woman to carry to full term is not a question in your opinion. You say medically and scientifically life begins at fertilization, it depends on your definition of life , without a brain, with no limbs, no organs, no thoughts, no feelings. Without anything that in anyway resembles what we consider to be alive, is it life or just growing cells ? Does that now 4 cell future embryo have the same rights as you or I ? By them time I finish this post,, there could very well be 1000 cells but still just cells, with discernible human attributes, pretty much just a glob of cells, similar to a loogie. But the potential is there ? Perhaps it has perhaps it doesnt. We can not look into the future to see whether it becomes a viable fetus or a miscarriage. I am not trying to be crude and unfeeling. But imho, no one has the right to tell a raped woman that she must carry that child of her attacker to full term. :nono2:
     
  7. Mar 8, 2006 #47 of 182
    AcuraCL

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    You're hearing it Tom. :wave:
     
  8. Mar 8, 2006 #48 of 182
    tomcrown1

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    Glade to see it. It is funny how men want to tell a woman how to handle her pergency. I know of lot of men who are pro life; yet will run from their obligation to the child that is born. They will not pay child support of have anything to do with the child. Our Ex-President Clinton showed his stripes when he passed a new welfare bill that forced Woman to work with very little thought to the child left behind. It seems in America our childern are second class citizens. As Dick Gregory stated
    " if we send our dogs off to war their would never bee any war.:nono2:
     
  9. Mar 8, 2006 #49 of 182
    AllieVi

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    Since it's so common, there's little stigma today by being an unwed mother. They're considered noble and their indiscretion is grudgingly accepted. Those who give up their children are looked upon as being uncaring and unfit.

    YOU said it's a life - I disagree.

    How does this increasingly portly woman explain her size (and subsequent miraculous weight loss) to friends and family?

    You can't be serious that kids aren't available for adoption in the U.S. I really can't explain why people feel the need to go overseas.

    Women should certainly be counseled and given this information before making their decision.
     
  10. Mar 8, 2006 #50 of 182
    BobMurdoch

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    IF they leave a rape or incest loophole, look for accusations of date rape to skyrocket. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby, some poor schmoe will go to jail for rape so SHE can avoid having the baby she doesn't want....
     
  11. Mar 8, 2006 #51 of 182
    Stewart Vernon

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    Sure they can.

    I was a 10 month baby... My sister, on the other hand, was taken early because of some health problems with our mother so she was an 8 month baby. Both of us have been growing just fine over the years.

    So was I not a person at 8 months just because I wasn't born yet?
     
  12. Mar 8, 2006 #52 of 182
    Stewart Vernon

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    I think I understood what you were saying... but some people will take that next logic leap forward. Already we have people wanting to make genetic enhancements to their kids while in the womb... not just to cure a fatal disease or something but to make them smarter or more athletic or something. We are getting really close to a level of technology where people will only want babies WHEN and HOW they want them... anything less than a perfect baby at the perfect time, and they will not want the baby.

    To me this is sad.

    I never try and debate the "when is it a person" argument... because none of us is in there to know and we don't remember when we were in there! But I think we could argue the following point.

    Sperm and egg by themselves aren't of much substance. Whether you have sex or not, some amount of these things are produced and die on a regular basis for most of your life after puberty.

    However, once combined, they form an embryo... and that embryo (if left naturally) will develop eventually into human baby. So whether we think of it as killing a person or not, we would be removing all possibility of that embryo to develop naturally into a baby person and have a life. If our mother's had made that choice for us, then we wouldn't be here to make the next generation choice ourselves!

    It's a lot to think about... which is why I understand and support difficult situations like rape, incest, and life-or-death of mother/baby instances... but I can't understand or support the "I had sex but don't want the consequences" defense sometimes used.

    Not exactly the same... but it's kind of like robbery... I can support the person who steals food for feeding the family but I can't support the one robbing the bank so he can buy a nicer car! One is about needs while the other is about wants.
     
  13. Mar 8, 2006 #53 of 182
    Stewart Vernon

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    I have never heard anyone on TV or otherwise resolve the following conflicting legalese...

    If a person kills a pregnant woman (and her fetus by the process) or just kills the fetus, but the mother survives... then this person has and can be charged with murder (double- murder in the first case).

    It would seem to me that IF a person can be charged with murder in this case... the abortion laws would also have to look at the fetus in the same regard, no?

    How can it be an "acceptable abortion" if the mother wants it to end... but be a "murder" if she doesn't? Isn't that having it both ways?

    One could logically conclude that IF abortion ever becomes fully accepted, then any actions of another person that cause the death of the unborn fetus during that same abortion-legal time period could NOT be considered murder. Assault on the mother, yes... but not murder.
     
  14. Mar 8, 2006 #54 of 182
    tomcrown1

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    Using this logic we should hang any woman who's fetus dies because she got an illness and did not get treatment in time, or got drunk and caused the fetus to die due to overdrinking or etc>> I think it is dumb to use the fetus in case for murder(how many times can we kill or leave a person in jail if the sentence is for life with out patrol??)
     
  15. Mar 8, 2006 #55 of 182
    ntexasdude

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    I yearn for a life without patrol.
     
  16. Mar 8, 2006 #56 of 182
    Stewart Vernon

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    In part, that was the point I was making... how can we charge a person for murder if it isn't legally considered murder?

    As to the first statement you made, about charging a mother who gets sick... that would just be silly... However, there are cases where the mother has been charged for abuse due to excessive drinking and/or drug use.

    I think drinking/drug abuse would be a valid reasont o charge the mother. Why? Well, because if she didn't want the baby she would have gotten an abortion, right? So since she didn't do that... she presumably wants the baby... and is thus abusing it by her dangerous actions and ingestions.
     
  17. Mar 8, 2006 #57 of 182
    Bogy

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    http://statistics.adoption.com/information/adoption-statistics-foster-care-1999.html

    There are plenty of children in this country wanting and needing to be adopted. I am not unfamiliar with adoption. I have two sisters, both adopted. My wife and I attempted to adopt a special needs child four years ago. He was African-American, 15 when we started the process, with ADHD, and had been born with fetal alcohol syndrome. His IQ was about 75. He had been in "the system" for 10 years, in various foster homes and residential facilities. Unfortunately, for various reasons the adoption process was delayed (largely because the understanding for years had been that he and his brother had the same father. We were very close to having things wrapped up, when he made a statement that he and his brother had different fathers. This meant the process of terminating the rights of the father had to start over.) As he got closer to 18 he saw less and less of a reason to be adopted, and finally left our family. He now realizes it was the biggest mistake of his life. My wife is a social worker, having worked for the state of Missouri, residential facilities for children in Missouri and Iowa, and now works for another agency and is contracted by the state of Iowa. She has terminated parental rights for children, and found adoptive homes. She now oversees foster parents and attempts to work with parents so that their parental rights will NOT be terminated. Some work with her, others continually blow her off.

    Why do people go to other countries? I've asked a number of people why they have done so. Many have the fear that if they adopt in the U.S. the birth parent will show up and demand the baby back. This CAN NO LONGER HAPPEN since the adoption reform act from 1998. Many of the children available in the U.S. are special needs. "Special needs" can be minority status, physical or mental challenges, age or behavior disorders. Many couples would rather go overseas and adopt a child that is perceived to not have these problems.

    Statistics show that while adoptions dropped in the 70's because of legal abortion, that is no longer a significant determining factor in the number of children available for adoption. Much more influential is the fact that many more single women are keeping their babies. They don't abort them, and they don't give them up for adoption. Teenagers are the group most likely to keep their child. Personally, my own anecdotal experience agrees with this. In at least half the weddings I officiate the couple have already had a child together. My experience may be a little different than many other pastors, because in the communities I serve, I am usually the only one who will marry people who are already living together. I am not going to tell dad that he has to move out for a period of time so I can marry them. :rolleyes:
    25 years ago when I entered the ministry it was very common for me to have a couple come to me with a need to be married quickly, before the bride got too big, and so the babies birth date could be rationalized as "premature." Today, I am much more likely to have a couple contact me about setting a date for the wedding sometime in about a year, so that she will be able to fit in her dress after the baby is born. Or they just wait until the little girl is big enough to be the flower girl. :grin:
     
  18. Mar 8, 2006 #58 of 182
    Geronimo

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    NO. But before your birth you were neither natural born (that one should be obvious) or a naturalized citizen. But when the framers wrote the equal protection clause they had absolutely no intention of deciding who or what is a person.
     
  19. Mar 8, 2006 #59 of 182
    AcuraCL

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    Perhaps you'd like to have a look at post #57.

    The interesting point is, what is the racial profile of adopting couples? How common is cross-racial adoption?

    I know in my area, they even allow gay couples to adopt the special needs babies, because I guess they figure even that is better than allowing them to grow up in group homes with no real parents.
     
  20. Mar 8, 2006 #60 of 182
    Danny R

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    Talking about the IDX procedure, and to my knowledge those are not "most 2nd term" abortions. I think you're talking about a D&E,

    Yes, I'm talking about that.

    Medically only D&E is the actual procedure for both types. IDX is considered a "subset" of D&E if the fetus is removed intact. But in almost all cases for even 2nd trimester abortions, a doctor performing a D&E will prefer to try and remove it "intact" because thats the best case scenario for preventing anything from remaining inside the womb.
     
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