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Would President Bush go to war to stop Tehran from getting the bomb?

Discussion in 'The OT' started by tomcrown1, Apr 10, 2006.

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  1. Richard King

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    http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-IRAN-MISSILES.xml&rpc=22
    Iran has missiles that put Europe in range
    Of course they are only for peaceful purposes.
     
  2. AllieVi

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    Much of the world doesn't believe as they do, yet they chose to attack us. If you honestly don't see an association between our support of Israel and the attack, there's no need to continue a dialog.

    Certainly not. But why should I not see it as punishment for Egypt making peace with Israel? From the terrorist perspective, if you're not with us, you're against us.

    Since Israel isn't a U.S. state, I see no reason that we should make a special case of protecting it. Time to cut the cord.

    For the first 45 years of that period, we had a mutually beneficial relationship. They were a reliable outpost in an area where we had few friends and we gave them a protective umbrella. Since the end of the Soviet Union, the benefits are no longer mutual. It's all one-sided now in Israel's favor.
     
  3. AllieVi

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    It appears to me that Iran is acting in its own best interest. It looks around the world and sees that the nations with nuclear weapons are treated with much more respect than those without.
     
  4. jhernandez86

    jhernandez86 New Member

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    Weapons of mass destruction. If I am not mistaken we have about ten thousand of them. Lets not include nerve gas and all the other Chemicals we posses. I can not help noticing that some of the argumensts on this post sound like arguments posted on Fox news. We have sucessfully divided this country into a Red and Blue state, and if you are from a Blue state well you will use some of the argumetns posted on CNN, and if you are a Red state avocate, you will repeat arguments posted on Fox news. Nonetheless, the argument of who should have Nuclear weapons and who should not, should not be decided by one country fully loaded with WMD.

    Now you see why some countries are rushing to develop nuclear weapons........they are afraid of our world dominance.

    They should not..........all we are trying to do is spread democracy....the AMERICAN WAY.
     
  5. Richard King

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    You didn't answer the question. Do you think they are developning a nuclear industry for peaceful purposes? To supply power to their people.
     
  6. Halfsek

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    And how can you prove that it's all one sided in Israel's favor? You can't. I can't prove the opposite. So it boils down to just how we feel about it.
    And I feel that US lawmakers feel that they are getting a good return on their investment.

    Sure there could be an "association" with our support for Israel and Muslim anger/ attacks. But so what? As I've said before, the association is a convenient excuse.
    People claim there is an association with psychotic bahavior and listening to certain types of music. It doesn't mean I actually put any faith in those arguments.

    "I kill innocent children in Bali becuase the US supports Israel!"
    "I kill innocent Muslims in the US because the US supports Israel!"
    "I kill people in Spain because of the US support of Israel!"

    And Alli is standing on the sideline saying, "See! I told you the US should stop with Israel!!"

    It's meaningless. Like others, you choose to accept the arguments of those who murder innocent people over the reality of two democratic nations working together.

    Alli, the answer to your posts is simply that the world should become an enemy of Israel. This would then help stem the tide of terrorist attacks in Muslim and non Muslim countries. And all becuase since the terrorists say it, you feel that it's worth accepting as fact.
     
  7. AllieVi

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    Sorry - I only covered half of the question.

    I think they're probably doing both. I would think they see the benefits of both nuclear power generation and weapons as we and many other countries do.

    Power generated via nuclear reduces the need for them to use oil for that purpose. Any oil they don't consume domestically can be exported to an increasingly thirsty world further into the future at higher prices. It's an option I would expect any shrewd business to choose.
     
  8. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    So are you saying that the US doesn't murder innocent people?

    There's way too much historical evidence to post here that suggests our government as well as private organizations within the US have killed innocent people.
     
  9. AllieVi

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    Not true. I don't advocate that anyone become their enemy. I just don't see the benefit of our current relationship. It's time for one of Israel's other allies to take over our current role.
     
  10. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I say both is the answer. I'm sure they want nuclear power, and I'm sure they also want the security that nuclear weapons would give them as well. After all, we haven't invaded a nuclear-armed country like North Korea, but we happily invaded Iraq.

    Do we in the US have nuclear technology only for peaceful purposes? And if your response is that we mostly use it peacefully... then why did our President back us out of treaties designed to reduce our nuclear weapons AND start us producing more new nuclear weapons? Are those for peaceful purposes?
     
  11. Halfsek

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    Alli, you claim that it's the US association with Israel and possible peace between Egypt and Israel which are big reasons for terrorists attacks.
    We all know that Egypt isn't giving any foreign aid to Israel. So the only thing they could do is not have peace.
    In other words, no country in the world can have peace with Israel if they don't want to be attacked by certain Muslims.

    You choose, in a sense, to blame Israel- whether it's the helping of or peace with. I choose to blame the terrorists.
    When someone blows up a nightclub in some random country not associated with Israel or the US, or if they target children in any country, I tend to disregard any justification they might have.
     
  12. Bogy

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    But you choose to disregard the terrorist roots of Israel, and are willing to justify the Zionist use of terrorism in establishing their state, no matter how many innocent people were hurt and killed.
     
  13. Halfsek

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    No Bogy. I choose to not dwell on what the Arabs did in the early days of the last century or what the Jews did in the early days of the last century.

    We'll each find our own sources and then lay them out on the table and see whose is longer.

    Whatever, Bogy.

    Iran is not trying to form a country. They are talking about the destruction of Israel.
    Hamas still wants the destruction of Israel.

    But that's okay, Bogy. I'm sure the innocents killed and maimed in Bali, Indonesia, Thailand and other countries are happy to know that the "violent history of the Zionists" actually have some sort of meaning in all of this.
     
  14. jonstad

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    I'm with Allie and HD. I think the answer is both, although I'll go so far as to say I believe the weapon rationale is primary. But the point of your question is do we think Iran is lying about their intentions? The answer is yes. The question then becomes, should we invade or "nuke" them for this apparently intentional deception? My answer is no.

    Governments lie and deceive all the time about some pretty important and weighty matters. If that's grounds for invasion or nuking, then no regime deserves it more than the one headquartered at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

    National leaders, and this is exemplified no better than by the crowd at 1600 Penn, are much more willing to send others to die than to risk it themselves. And I believe this is also the case in Iran. Their goal for nuclear weaons is NOT to immediately nuke Israel. They will use them as we and many others do, as an item of prestige and to display as a threat to impress and influence others.

    With one exception(and you know who that exception is), no one has ever used nuclear weapons against another nation. This doesn't mean it couldn't happen and why we should discourage their proliferation. But we're the drunken bartender who refuses to serve customers between swigs on a gallon of Jack Daniels, insisting that what might happen if they take just one drink is too horrible to contemplate. And we're willing to back up our insistence with the shotgun behind the bar.
     
  15. Bogy

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    So to you, what the Zionists were willing to do in 1947, because of what happened to them in Europe, which in turn caused the Palestinian response, are meaningless? David Ben-Gurion, realized what he was doing was terrorism, and he recognized that the Palestinian response was understandable. Not that it stopped him from doing what he felt he needed to do, but he understood.

    You keep repeating that Arabs want to see the destruction of Israel, but Israel's leaders, from Golda Meier on have sought to rewrite history by erasing the Palestinians completely. They came up with the myth that there were no Palestinians, there was no one living in Palestine, there was nothing there until the Jews came back after a 1900 year Sabbath. That is also the destruction of a people.
     
  16. AllieVi

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    I think that's a valid statement.

    I don't blame Israel. It's doing what it can to improve its chances of survival by maintaining an alliance with the U.S.. I simply don't see how that alliance benefits the U.S..

    I agree that the terrorists alone are to blame for the despicable actions they take. Israel appears to be in a death-struggle for its survival and its opponents are willing to pull out all the stops to win.

    But still, why should the U.S. ally itself with one side in this struggle? If we inject ourselves in this fight, should we do the same with every similar situation around the world?
     
  17. Halfsek

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    Israel's existence, and the fact that the US and Egypt are not enemies of Israel, provides good enough excuse for you that the terrorists have a righteous reason to attack the US and Egypt.

    Everyone has a reason for their actions, Alli, why do you feel that you have to accept it?

    Although you claim that "the terrorists alone are to blame for the despicable actions they take" you accept the terrorist rationale, but don't accept the US rationale in our support of Israel. You choose the terrorist rationale of punishing Egypt rather than accepting Egypt's rationale of having peace with Israel.

    Why is that?
     
  18. AllieVi

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    You keep putting words in my mouth, and then refuting those words. I never suggested that the terrorist acts were righteous. Please don't assume to know what I think.

    Once again, words in my mouth. I never said I had to accept or not accept anything. What I have said all along is that i see no need to involve our country in the Middle East dispute. As I mentioned in a prior post, let Israel's other allies take over the job.

    I simply responded to your question about the motivations of the terrorists. I hear terrorists and governments say that they want to destroy Israel and I believe they're sincere. I think they believe the goal is supported when they terrorize countries that are friendly to Israel. Do you agree that they believe so?

    Please note that I didn't say I agree with them. I'm simply describing my perspective of the situation.
     
  19. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    This is as good a place as any to mention this...

    There is a long history of problems in Northern Ireland.

    There is a long history of problems in the middle east.

    Both of the above seem to be primarily motivated by religious differences.

    Think, for a minute, about black slaves in the US. For a long time there were slaves who were mistreated, abused, and treated as second class citizens.

    Think, for a minute, about the Native Americans who were pushed around and even given smallpox to try and run them out.

    Now... In the US today, with all our race relation problems... we don't have black or Native American terrorists blowing up buses or buildings to demonstrate their very real mistreatment.

    I personally find that to be utterly amazing, when you consider that if you looked at things objectively... it would be perfectly reasonable to expect some history of MAJOR backlash from these minorities... and yet we aren't worried that some group of Native Americans or black power group will get nukes and blow stuff up. Heck, we aren't even worried that the KKK will set off some nukes to take out minorities for their crazy cause!

    Which all makes me wonder... why the people in the middle east cannot get along any better than the folks in Northern Ireland. It just makes me think.
     
  20. Halfsek

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    I'll concede that 'righteous' was too strong of a word. I was trying to find the right word to get my point across and grabbed the wrong one.

    My point is I don't care what perspecitive of the terrorist is. Their beliefs and actions have taken them out of the context of normal thought.
    Of course they believe that anything they can do to hurt Israel helps their cause.
    Suppose the Bahamas had strong relations with Israel and terrorists blew up a school there. All you would have to do is replace "US" with "Bahamas" in any of your previous posts.

    And that's because your arguments use their irrational desirers as points which should be considered regarding a country's involvement with Israel.

    Which leads to my point of blaming Israel. Sure, you're not saying, "it's Israel's fault", but the fact that you constantly refer to an association with Israel, rather than just plain saying "that was wrong" does have a blame Israel flavor to it.

    So yes. I agree that the US support of Israel does bring on an extra excuse for terrorist attacks. I also believe that no US support of Israel wouldn't necessarily lower any terrorism we face.

    So the options are:

    1) Stop all connection with Israel; which essentially bows to the irrational desires and demands of the terrorists.

    or

    2) Confront the terrorists and let them know that their desire for the deaths of all Jews is not going to stop the US or Egypt or any other country who simply wants peaceful relations with another country.

    There was a horrible story of two white kids critically wounding a Mexican kid who they felt tried to kiss a white girl. I'm sure the white kids have all sorts of stories about how they were wronged by Mexicans. Some might be true, some false, some exaggerated. Is the answer to not have white girls and Mexican boys mix? Of course not. The answer is to punish the two white kids and allow the other to happen.
     
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