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AllStar
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm about to take the plunge for a 1080p LCD HDTV and I'm wondering what the preferred settings are for it paired with an HR20. I currently have a 32" LCD that has 720p native, so the HR20 is set there.

For those of you, if any, that have a 1080p set, how do you have the HR20 setup? 1080i with native off?

Thanks,
Eric
 

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Hall Of Fame
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It's a trade off either way you do it. If you set it to 720p, you're missing out on some resolution in 1080i broadcasts. But if you set it to 1080i, you're missing out on half the frames in 720p broadcasts. If native mode weren't so crappy, this wouldn't really be an issue.
 

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I have 480i disabled, but all three other resolutions enabled, and Native mode turned on.

The DVR/TV synch as resolutions change is a little slow, but provides the best quality picture for me. I have a Mitsubishi 57" DLP 1080p set. The Mitsubishi built in upconvert is much better than the HR20. Letting the HR20 upconvert a 720p picture for me there is a noticable quality dropoff from having the TV do the upconvert. I also use HDMI only, and have never had the problems described related to HDMI.

Here is the thing, your set is always going to do a convert anyway. Whatever signal gets to it, it only shows a 1080p picture. So, if you put your picture through two processes, it will most likely be a more degraded picture than if it goes only through one conversion process.

However, your milage may differ, and some think the resynch takes too long and hampers surfing. Well the HR20 by itself hampers surfing-- without the dual buffers, I don't ever do that anyway.
 

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Best is probably to pass through just 720p and 1080i. You need to pass through 1080i because if your TV has good deinterlacing and 3:2 pulldown you will get real 1080p if the source was film. 720p should be passed through because there is no value in interlacing it to 1080i and then deinterlacing it again. So selecting a single resolution at the Hr20 is not a good idea with a 1080p TV. For 480i and 480p it's your choice, it probably does not matter whether you let the HR20 or the TV do the upconvert.
 

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Godfather
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hmss007 said:
I'm about to take the plunge for a 1080p LCD HDTV and I'm wondering what the preferred settings are for it paired with an HR20. I currently have a 32" LCD that has 720p native, so the HR20 is set there.
My first suggestion is that you use and HDMI cable so that the audio and video from the satellite receiver stays digital and never gets converted to analog.

I personally want my DirecTV signal re-processed as litte as possible, so I run my TV and satellite receiver both in Native mode. This way the satellite receiver sends exactly what it gets from DirecTV without upconverting or downconverting it. I run my Toshiba 72HM196 in Natural picture mode with Auto Aspect Ratio turned off, again so that the picture is "messed with" as little as possible. This is all because I work at a television station and am a purist. I believe the more a signal is processed, the worse it is going to be.
 

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litzdog911 said:
I would think 1080i with Native Off will probably be fine. But you'll want to try other settings when you get your TV to see what works best. Be sure to record HDNet's 10-minute HDTV Test Pattern.
What is this? How do I get it, and what can you do with it. First I have heard of it. Any docs regarding it etc. Thanks.
 

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AllStar
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HolmesCo said:
What is this? How do I get it, and what can you do with it. First I have heard of it. Any docs regarding it etc. Thanks.
I wondered that myself. I found that it will be on Sunday 12/31 at 0650 Eastern.
 

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Legend
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It's basically every Sunday Morning at that time.
 

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dwenn said:
It's basically every Sunday Morning at that time.
Great, thanks for that. Anyone know what you can do with it? Does it have some instrcutions on screen to optmize your picture, or just what and how does it work? Could be interesting.
 

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RBR Hitit tillit bricksit
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266 Posts
Pattern #1



Pattern #2



Pattern #3



Here is some directions I found. I did not write this.

Pattern 1: Color Bars

Setting COLOR and TINT

If you have a blue filter (such as from the Avia or Digital Video Essentials DVD's) you can use this pattern to set COLOR and TINT. But, this pattern is not actually very good for that purpose. While looking through the blue filter you need to match the levels of the blue and white bars while adjusting COLOR, and match the levels of the cyan and magenta bars while adjusting TINT. Since neither pair is right next to each other this is very difficult do do with this pattern.

Setting CONTRAST (or PICTURE) and BRIGHTNESS

Using the gray patches with numbers across the bottom you can make some reasonable CONTRAST and BRIGHTNESS adjustments. To adjust brightness, look at the rightmost square which actually has a very dim number 10 in it. You should just barely be able to make out the number 10. If you can see it clearly your BRIGHTNESS is too high. If you can't see it at all your BRIGHTNESS is too low. I would recommend turning down BRIGHTNESS until you can't see it and then gradually raising it until you just make it out. That does not mean your brightness will be perfect as there are other issues that can affect it. One is ambient light. You will probably notice that you would set it differently if the room is totally dark vs. if there is ambient light. Also, some displays don't "hold black" very well which means the brightness varies depending on the overall luminance of the image. This test pattern is pretty average, but if you watch lots of dark programming (movies) or lots of bright programming (sports) you may still need to adjust brightness one way or another.

If you have a fixed pixel display (DLP, LCD, etc.) you can make sure you aren't crushing the whites or maxing out one of the colors by having your CONTRAST too high. Look at the leftmost (white) square and make sure you can see the number 0 in it. If not, lower CONTRAST until you can. You may then still notice a significant color shift between the 0 square and the 1 square. On DLP's you'll usually notice the 1 square looks reddish. If you see this, continue lower contrast until the two squares look about the same color of gray.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Adjusting CONTRAST will affect BRIGHTNESS and vice versa so go back and forth until they both look good.

Pattern 2: Crosshatch

Use this pattern to adjust CONVERGENCE (CRT based displays only). Look at the grid and make sure all the lines are white. You shouldn't have blue or red fringes and the lines shouldn't separate into 3 colors on parts of the screen. Use your CONVERGENCE controls to do the best you can to make all the lines white.

You can also use this pattern to adjust focus on front projectors, focus until the crosses are as crisp as possible. On fixed pixel displays get right up to the screen and see how clear the individual pixels look to really dial it in.

Pattern 3: Overscan, Resolution and Sharpness

Use this pattern to set your SHARPNESS. Look at the black grid lines and outer edge of the circle and the black text on gray background in the square on the left and look for white "outlines" on either side. You should attempt to lower SHARPNESS to reduce the white highlights as much as possible. But, when you do so, pay attention to the resolution patterns. If the wedges start turning into gray mush as you lower sharpness, you'll have to make a compromise. Lowering SHARPNESS too much will reduce your resolution, but raising it too much will increase the undesirable edge enhancement.

To set overscan, you need to check that the numbers on the sides are roughly 2X the numbers on the top and bottom. I've anaylized it in detail here. The pattern does not represent actual overscan percentages but there is a formula that will let you compute them from the numbers displayed on this pattern.

If you really want to get it as good as possible, I'd recommend an ISF calibration as a calbrator should use a test pattern generator with better patterns for adjusting these things and will also be able to calibrate your grayscale for more accurate colors but with the information above you should be able to get a good start.
 

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wow cool...........will do this sun....what a resource this site is.......i wish there was one to adjust spouses!!!!! Earl, do you have a family counseling degree?
 

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Brantel said:
Pattern #1


.........
is a formula that will let you compute them from the numbers displayed on this pattern.

If you really want to get it as good as possible, I'd recommend an ISF calibration as a calbrator should use a test pattern generator with better patterns for adjusting these things and will also be able to calibrate your grayscale for more accurate colors but with the information above you should be able to get a good start.
Terrific info. I certianly appreciate your publishing this and will bookmark it as well as print it. Thanks mucho.

Do most comm'l tvs really have a convergence adjustment? Dont' recall ever seeing such on mine. But hopefully I missed it. I am a tweaker type so will play aroudn with this, but alwasy recroding original settings first. :D
 

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DirecTV 10yr+ Customer
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texasbrit said:
Best is probably to pass through just 720p and 1080i. You need to pass through 1080i because if your TV has good deinterlacing and 3:2pulldown you will get real 1080p if the source was film. 720p should be passed through because there is no value in interlacing it to 1080i and then deinterlacing it again. So selecting a single resolution at the Hr20 is not a good idea with a 1080p TV. For 480i and 480p it's your choice, it probably does not matter whether you let the HR20 or the TV do the upconvert.
This assumes the TV is not taking the 1080i input and showing it 1080i.

Film content is 720x480 off the DVD so it will be scaled to 1920x1080....assuming this is the native rez of the HDTV. 3:2 pulldown is done by the TV on this....however since the subject is always D* broadcasts and not DVD player outputs then D* has already converted the frame rate...so this should not be any concern.

So, my suggestion is to go into HR20 and make sure Aspect is set to 16:9, turn Native OFF, uncheck all rez support except 720P. This way the HR20 scales all broadcasts to 720P and the HDTV TV scalar scales 720P to 1080P always onto the 1920x1080 native rez of the HDTV. This way you get a progressive format throughout and minizmize conversion/de-interlacing thrashing/artifacts.
 

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HolmesCo said:
Terrific info. I certianly appreciate your publishing this and will bookmark it as well as print it. Thanks mucho.

Do most comm'l tvs really have a convergence adjustment? Dont' recall ever seeing such on mine. But hopefully I missed it. I am a tweaker type so will play aroudn with this, but alwasy recroding original settings first. :D
If you have a fixed pixel display, there is no convergence, it is perfect by design:

DLP
LCD
Plasma

are all fixed pixel. (not sure about Plasma, but that's what I recall)
 

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Legend
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My opinion is that it really depends on your set.

For me I find that Native on with 480p, 720p & 1080i selected works best for my 1080p set (it takes 480i/p 720p & 1080i/p as input over HDMI and is a native 1080/p set.)

I like 480p for SD because when I pause SD signals it hardly shows interlace artifacts on 480i signals--unlike my old R10-Tivo. I like 1080i because my TV can display all the pixels with no over-scan for 1080i signals which is how I perfer to watch shows sent as 1080i. However for 480p and 720p channels my TV is set to over-scan which is what I like to do when for most of the content that I view on those channels where I sometimes would see crap on the screen (Fox being the worst for crap.)

As far as which scaler looks better, the HR20s or my TVs it is really hard for me to tell the difference. I have tried to send everything as 1080i (native off) to my set but it is hard to notice a difference in quality.

I also agree with the comment above saying "720p should be passed through because there is no value in interlacing it to 1080i and then deinterlacing it again."
 

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thekochs said:
...snip...
So, my suggestion is to go into HR20 and make sure Aspect is set to 16:9, turn Native OFF, uncheck all rez support except 720P. This way the HR20 scales all broadcasts to 720P and the HDTV TV scalar scales 720P to 1080P always onto the 1920x1080 native rez of the HDTV. This way you get a progressive format throughout and minizmize conversion/de-interlacing thrashing/artifacts.
I am missing something here. If you force 720p output for everything on the HR20, what happens to the stations I get which are showing 1080i? I think I do want those passed through natively so that my TV is doing the only processing on that signal, which is just to deinterlace.

Secondly, by doing the initial upconvert to 720p on a SD signal in the HR20, then it is subjected again to another upconvert to 1080p in the set. That is the reason that I also have the 480p resolution enabled. Like I said above, everyone's milage will vary on this, but I have found for my 1080p set, that the least amount of work done on scaling the picture in the HR20, the better, because the set does such a fine job of it later anyway.

Now, on my upconvert DVD player, that is a different story. I have it outputting only 1080p-- and everything is done inside the player. But that is the main point of having an upconverting DVD player. (Mine is a Samsung HD960)
 

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mlyle said:
I am missing something here. If you force 720p output for everything on the HR20, what happens to the stations I get which are showing 1080i? I think I do want those passed through natively so that my TV is doing the only processing on that signal, which is just to deinterlace.
I agree with you - going from 1080i to 720p in the HR20 is throwing away resolution for no reason. 1080i signals should be passed through that way to a 1080p set and then deinterlaced by the TV. Similarly 720p signals should be passed to the TV and upconverted there (assuming that the scaler in the TV is at least as good as the HR20).
 

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hmss007 said:
I'm about to take the plunge for a 1080p LCD HDTV and I'm wondering what the preferred settings are for it paired with an HR20. I currently have a 32" LCD that has 720p native, so the HR20 is set there.

For those of you, if any, that have a 1080p set, how do you have the HR20 setup? 1080i with native off?

Thanks,
Eric
I'm running 1080i with native turned off on my 60"SXRD. Great picture
 
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