2 residences with one dish

4090 Views 22 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Old_School, Feb 20, 2012

ds2992

Discussion Starter · Feb 9, 2012

I have an install to do for a customer who will have no line of site from anywhere on his town home as the hoa will not allow it from anywhere he can get the dish installed. However his next door neighbor has a dtv 18" installed and has great los. They are on good speaking terms and the potential customer has a note from his neighbor authorizing the mount of a dish on his premises.
What i want to know for the sake of the appearance of the install is how to install them both with the same dish and be independent of sharing a swim power insert-er. The potential cx will be getting mrv and the existing cx has an r15. keep in mind i want them both to be independent and not share a power insert-er. How is this done and i'm not interested in whether or not dtv allows this type of thing. I want it to function.

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

veryoldschool

· #2 · Feb 9, 2012

There are a few problems here:
The R15 is a legacy receiver/DVR, so it doesn't work with SWiM.
Having the power for a SWiM "independent" seems like it would have to be in a common access location.
The SWM8, where the R15 connects to the legacy ports, should resolve that part, and leave the other apt/unit to use the SWiM, once you've found where to power it.

carl6

· #3 · Feb 9, 2012

You need to replace the 18" dish with a conventional (not SWM) Slimline. Run 4 coax to an SWM8. Then (as VOS pointed out), feed the R15 from the legacy outputs of the SWM8 and the new customer from the SWM output. Make sure the new customer knows if he unplugs the power inserter that both he and the other account will lose signal.

dsw2112

· #4 · Feb 9, 2012

I remembered seeing this posted by RobertE in another thread:

RobertE said:
Agreed. The D12 should be on the SWM side. In addition it is against policy to install any receivers on the legacy ports. And no, not going to go into the "whys".

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2917149#post2917149

Looks like it's a no no for a tech to use the legacy ports.

PokerJoker

· #5 · Feb 9, 2012

This is probably "against policy" too, but you could: Put up a standard 4-coax non-SWM slimline dish in place of the 18 inch. Run the four leads to a WB68 switch. Use four outputs from the WB68 to feed into a SWM8, which in turn supplies an 8-tuner SWM signal cable to the new install. Use two of the other four WB68 outputs to feed the legacy R15 in the other townhome.

This setup is reasonably cheap and it works, and the two sides are independent from each other. Even if the SWM PI (which is placed in the townhome with the new install) gets unplugged, the R15 will still work. Plus now the guy with the R15 can easily upgrade to HD with just a box swap and some BBCs.

Keith

veryoldschool

· #6 · Feb 9, 2012

dsw2112 said:
I remembered seeing this posted by RobertE in another thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2917149#post2917149

Looks like it's a no no for a tech to use the legacy ports.

You're mixing up a SWiM-16 and a SWM8 [for one thing] and "the jury is still out", over the use of legacy ports of the SWiM-16. I know of a few installs that cascade one SWiM-16 off another through the legacy ports and work fine.
I hope to be able to do some testing in the future to know what's going on.

dsw2112

· #7 · Feb 9, 2012

veryoldschool said:
I know of a few installs that cascade one SWiM-16 off another through the legacy ports and work fine.

Yep, not disputing that it works. D* has a lot of rules for things that will work, but they don't wish to be used. Just remembered seeing RobertE's post. I'd imagine if they don't want receivers installed on SWM16 legacy ports then they wouldn't want it done on a SWM8 either. RobertE could probably clarify whether the legacy port "rule" would apply to the above situation.

veryoldschool

· #8 · Feb 9, 2012

dsw2112 said:
Yep, not disputing that it works. D* has a lot of rules for things...

That make no sense at all and makes one wonder WTF they're thinking.

carl6

· #9 · Feb 9, 2012

PokerJoker said:
This is probably "against policy" too, but you could: Put up a standard 4-coax non-SWM slimline dish in place of the 18 inch. Run the four leads to a WB68 switch. Use four outputs from the WB68 to feed into a SWM8, which in turn supplies an 8-tuner SWM signal cable to the new install. Use two of the other four WB68 outputs to feed the legacy R15 in the other townhome.

This setup is reasonably cheap and it works, and the two sides are independent from each other. Even if the SWM PI (which is placed in the townhome with the new install) gets unplugged, the R15 will still work. Plus now the guy with the R15 can easily upgrade to HD with just a box swap and some BBCs.

Keith

I like this suggestion because it eliminates the unplugged power inserter problem for the other resident. I suspect though that it would be considered unsupported by DirecTV.

ds2992

Discussion Starter · #10 · Feb 10, 2012

thanks pokerjoker that is what i was looking for.

Shades228

· #11 · Feb 10, 2012

veryoldschool said:
You're mixing up a SWiM-16 and a SWM8 [for one thing] and "the jury is still out", over the use of legacy ports of the SWiM-16. I know of a few installs that cascade one SWiM-16 off another through the legacy ports and work fine.
I hope to be able to do some testing in the future to know what's going on.

DIRECTV does not authorize the legacy ports to be used for receivers on any installation. To chain SWM's together it's approved. You being the RF master I'm sure you can determine why but my guess is the voltage drop off is severe on those ports.

To the OP the only "good" way to do this would be to have legacy dish and then SWM 8's for each side of the house. However this would still not be something a DIRECTV installer would be approved to do on a QA check. However the HoA cannot stop him from having it installed where he can get LoS as long as he can prove he can't get LoS within the guidelines they ask for.

veryoldschool

· #12 · Feb 10, 2012

Shades228 said:
DIRECTV does not authorize the legacy ports to be used for receivers on any installation. To chain SWM's together it's approved. You being the RF master I'm sure you can determine why but my guess is the voltage drop off is severe on those ports.

This must be an evolution from the earlier days, and moving to the connected home.
The SWM8 has legacy ports just for legacy receivers, though only 3 of them.
The Connected home upgrade, swaps out all non SWiM receivers, so this may be where the change came in.
There isn't a "voltage drop" off the legacy ports, since they're just using the voltage to switch the ports, as the SWiM is powering the LNB.

"Daisy-chaining" SWiM-16s, is the way they were designed, sas they do have "legacy ports". Since they do have some loss between the SWiM-16 inputs, I wouldn't connect a WB68, but another SWiM that has an AGC shouldn't be [isn't] a problem.

ds2992

Discussion Starter · #13 · Feb 11, 2012

I found a switch designed for this application.
http://www.sonoradesign.com/popup_image.php?pID=672&osCsid=piip311i4va8gvpsdr021piap3

it is called a swim expander. swme1r009

legacy in swm mod out on either side.

veryoldschool

· #14 · Feb 11, 2012

ds2992 said:
I found a switch designed for this application.
http://www.sonoradesign.com/popup_image.php?pID=672&osCsid=piip311i4va8gvpsdr021piap3

it is called a swim expander. swme1r009

legacy in swm mod out on either side.

Nothing but a few 2-way power passing splitters.
The WB68 has a plus of not having the signal loss of either of these.

AntAltMike

· #15 · Feb 11, 2012

The term "Legacy port" is not included in any engineering dictionaries. I think that the so-called legacy ports on an SWM8 are diplexed with off-air, so they would likely incorporate internal bandstopping of Ka lo signals.

It would be practical for DirecTV to allow the use of SWM8 Legacy ports for accounts that do not subscribe to HD or need Ka for locals. It could be that edicts we read of regarding the prohibition of connecting receivers to such ports are conclusions that installers and dealers have arrived at themselves that do not take into account the possibility that DirecTv may allow such use in limited situations.

I can conceive of a couple of reasons why DirecTV might explicitly preclude the use of SWM16 ports for Directv receiver tuner support while still allowing receiver connection to SWM8s. One is that since the legacy ports on a SWM16 were engineered for supporting a cascaded SWM, they might not have the same dB output level as a SWM 8. Another is that the SWM16 legacy might not be engineered to pass MRV signals from the SWM port(s) to the legacy ports. Does anyone know for sure whether MRV functionality permits passing the MRV signals from one cascaded SWM16 to another, or whether to MRV can pass laterally from one legacy port to another?

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veryoldschool

· #16 · Feb 11, 2012

AntAltMike said:
The term "Legacy port" is not included in any engineering dictionaries. I think that the so-called legacy ports on an SWM8 are diplexed with off-air, so they would likely incorporate internal bandstopping of Ka lo signals.

It would be practical for DirecTV to allow the use of SWM8 Legacy ports for accounts that do not subscribe to HD or need Ka for locals. It could be that edicts we read of regarding the prohibition of connecting receivers to such ports are conclusions that installers and dealers have arrived at themselves that do not take into account the possibility that DirecTv may allow such use in limited situations.

I can conceive of a couple of reasons why DirecTV might explicitly preclude the use of SWM16 ports for Directv receiver tuner support while still allowing receiver connection to SWM8s. One is that since the legacy ports on a SWM16 were engineered for supporting a cascaded SWM, they might not have the same dB output level as a SWM 8. Another is that the SWM16 legacy might not be engineered to pass MRV signals from the SWM port(s) to the legacy ports. Does anyone know for sure whether MRV functionality permits passing the MRV signals from one cascaded SWM16 to another, or whether to MRV can pass laterally from one legacy port to another?

Don't know why a term to describe something must be in an engineering dictionary to be relevant.
No, OTA isn't diplexed into the legacy ports of the SWM8.
DECA isn't passed to the legacy ports of the SWiM-16.
When cascading SWiM-16s, each DECA cloud has to be bridged through ethernet.

Old_School

· #17 · Feb 19, 2012

Don't mean to hijack the OP thread but, i have a question on the same topic..

Couple of months ago i got D installed in my apartment (there are 2 here in the building) and i already had a slimline dish that i had bought from solid signal that was up at my previous address. Since my landlord is picky i decided to map out a location on dishpointer for the dish, confirm it okay with the landlord and go ahead and install so everything was cool.

Tech showed up and was thrilled that all he had to do was swap LNB's and run the coax to the rooms. I later went out, cleaned up his work and put the 8-way splitter into a plastic cable box to make it look good. I placed a label on the dish "Apt 2 Only" and one on the cable box "Apt 2 Directv, Comcast Keep Out!" and placed a padlock on the box.

A few days ago a Directv truck rolls up in front of my house. Seems my extremely grumpy neighbor downstairs has decided that he's tired of E and since i have D he would copy. Few minutes after the tech arrived i hear some talking and see someone at my cable box. I go out to see what's going on and find that the tech has cut my lock and in working in my box. I ask him what the heck (not the word i used) is he doing? He tells me that he is installing my neighbor to the system and that the dish is property of Directv and he can do whatever he wants with it:eek2:

I then told him that I have bought my own dish and installed it myself and that he was gonna have to install his own dish. After he argued for a bit i asked him the number to his supervisor.... he would not give it to me saying he had the right to do whatever... so i called Directv and told them what was going on and they gave me the number to the local HSP and i was connected to the supervisor. I told him what was going on and that his tech was hacking my system up and i expected them to fix it the way it was... The guy was very sorry about it and within 10 mins the tech was going to his truck to get a dish to install..

So my question is.... was the tech telling the truth and even though i buy my own stuff its still property of DTV and the supervisor just made him install a 2nd dish just to make me happy or did we find a lazy installer that wanted to just tap into my dish to make a quick install??

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dsw2112

· #18 · Feb 19, 2012

Old_School said:
So my question is.... was the tech telling the truth and even though i buy my own stuff its still property of DTV and the supervisor just made him install a 2nd dish just to make me happy or did we find a lazy installer that wanted to just tap into my dish to make a quick install??

Nope, you were in the right. Dish, cabling, splitter, etc is your property. Your neighbor is entitiled to their own dish, and I guarantee that it was on the workorder. The tech was trying to take the "easy" way out. There are often problems when two neighbors share a dish that's not setup for MDU.

Old_School

· #19 · Feb 19, 2012

dsw2112 said:
Nope, you were in the right. Dish, cabling, splitter, etc is your property. Your neighbor is entitiled to their own dish, and I guarantee that it was on the workorder. The tech was trying to take the "easy" way out. There are often problems when two neighbors share a dish that's not setup for MDU.

Not only problems with MDU but, he's one of them that calls the cops for everything hes PO'ed about.

Wouldn't that mess up my Whole Home/MRV?

carl6

· #20 · Feb 19, 2012

Old_School said:
Wouldn't that mess up my Whole Home/MRV?

You would see his recordings and he would see yours (unless a bandstop filer was placed between your two services). It would also limit the number of tuners you were able to use, so if either of you added a DVR (or 2 or however many), you would run into loss of signal problems.

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