[Seaking]

OK, here I am again. Back in April I had the call about the free upgrade and DTV sent the local installer(MASTEC). The installer had been there previously taking care of some bad connectors on the service plan. When he remembered me and the location he said I still couldn't get the necessary signals.

see this thread for more detail http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=125337

Well now getting nearing to losing my HD reception I called DTV and asked what to do. They said the installers canceled the install after the supervisor reviewed the site and said the trees are blocking me.

currently I get 101 and 110 with good signal strength but not 119. ITs been that way for years.

DTV gave me the installers company name, number, tech's #, and supervisors name with instructions to call them.

Called them and explained the situation to the first "girl/phone order taker", she handed me off to a tech. explained it all to him, he got enough of me and got his boss. After explaining , how I cut trees to get the original single DTV satellite years ago and did my own install then years after that DTV installers came and upgraded me to the dual LNB then the 3 lnb and I have never gotten 119 but can see 101 and 110 just fine.

The "boss" tell me they have to use 119 to "align" the dish. I said "ah HA, that is the problem you don't know how to line the dish to other satellites." I told him I know and I guess he knows that 119 and 110 are soon to be not used for HD and I don't need to see those sat's. He finally said that he couldn't do anything without a new DTV upgrade order, but if I would call DTV and arrange that he would send his "best guy" and make it work.

So , now I have to call DTV and set up the new upgrade, again!

Aiming the dish, am I right in believing a good tech should be able to set a dish to see whatever sat's are visible? I have looked at the different elevations for 99, 101, 103 and 110. Seems to me everything I need is higher in the sky than 110's elevation and I can see 101 to 110 fine so 99 should be fine.

Got to get this ironed out before the NFL season begins!

 

[BattleZone]

Aiming the dish, am I right in believing a good tech should be able to set a dish to see whatever sat's are visible? I have looked at the different elevations for 99, 101, 103 and 110. Seems to me everything I need is higher in the sky than 110's elevation and I can see 101 to 110 fine so 99 should be fine.

It isn't about being a good tech.

The satellite meters that most installers use cannot read the signals from 99 and 103, because they are on different frequencies than their meters are designed to read. And after spending $450-500 on a meter, most don't have the money for a second $500 meter that can read those birds.

DirecTV's installation/aiming instructions for the 5-LNB dish require the use of 119 in order to aim the dish properly. Without that signal, there's a decent chance that you'll have low signal strengths on 99 and 103, and since these Ka-band signals are already more sensitive to rain fade, low signals means you'll lose your HD signal more often.

Is it possible to work around this? Yes, a very experienced, knowledgable tech, with some assistance from a second person, can do it. The problem is that there are so few of those techs still working for DirecTV's various HSPs, because the HSPs treat and pay the installers so poorly. The bulk of the installers are brand new and have no experience outside of their very limited, specific training. That's one of the reasons why DirecTV requires Line-Of-Site to *all* of the satellites.

Hopefully, the HSP will send out someone with some skill and experience, but honestly, I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[RobertE]

Just to add, whoever they do send out is taking a risk of a charge back as well.

A couple of ways this could happen. If the QC group stops by and determines that there is no line of sight to the 119 bird, bam, charge back to the tech that went out of his way to serve you.

The other is for whatever reason, you (or someone else in the house) calls in to complain that channel XYZ just shows 771 searching for sat (because it got moved to the 119) then, bam, charge back. Same as above.

Those are the two biggest reasons why most won't do a Ka/Ku install/upgrade without a clear shot of all 5 sats.

Now with the SL3 getting closer to release, that will change a bit since it only needs 99/101/103. But its, not ready yet, but soon...

 

[dkouz]

A way around the receiver having 771 on the channels that are on 119 is easy! Although this will cause the receiver to not be able to use 119 or 110.

During the setup, select 'Slimline 3-LNB.' I have done this with much success.


About the 'charge back to the techs,' not all HSPs work that way.

 

[evan_s]

DirecTV's installation/aiming instructions for the 5-LNB dish require the use of 119 in order to aim the dish properly. Without that signal, there's a decent chance that you'll have low signal strengths on 99 and 103, and since these Ka-band signals are already more sensitive to rain fade, low signals means you'll lose your HD signal more often.

119 isn't really important for aiming for 99/103. Peaking 119 is done by setting the tilt on the dish after peaking the others on 101. This should get 101/110/119 dialed in well enough. The dithering process used to peak 99/103 with out a meter to read them only does the azimuth and elevation. It doesn't dither the tilt. The tilt doesn't really end up effecting 99/103 much since they are so close to 101. If you feel like it you can verify it yourself by adjusting the your dish. 110/119 will be effected a lot more by tilt than 99/103 will.

 

[Seaking]

Thanks for the replies

IIP, I will set an appointment that I can be there to help in the alignment.

Evan_S, so the alignment process is to set the elevation for the "correct" value for my Lat Long then aim the azimith for 101. Peaking the signal by watching transponder strengths on a setup page for 101 then check the 99 and 103 birds?

 

[eakes]

Yes, 119 only comes into play to adjust the tilt. My experience is that if you start with the mounting pole plumb, then the tilt setting given in the receiver setup info is good enough - no real need to adjust tilt from that setting even if you receive signal from 119.

Use your meter to adjust on 101. When you have that signal close to max, insert the power passing section of a 4-way splitter between your meter and the coax from the dish. Now peak on 101 - the fine adjustments on the 5LNB mount make this a very easy adjustment.

Once you have peaked 101 as described above, remove your test equipment and check signal level on all the satellites, you should have mid to high 90s on almost all transponders you receive that are not spot beams. i aligned two 5 LNB dishes before 99 and 103 were turned on and those are the signal strengths received without any additional adjustment.

 

[joe diamond]

Yes, 119 only comes into play to adjust the tilt. My experience is that if you start with the mounting pole plumb, then the tilt setting given in the receiver setup info is good enough - no real need to adjust tilt from that setting even if you receive signal from 119.

Use your meter to adjust on 101. When you have that signal close to max, insert the power passing section of a 4-way splitter between your meter and the coax from the dish. Now peak on 101 - the fine adjustments on the 5LNB mount make this a very easy adjustment.

Once you have peaked 101 as described above, remove your test equipment and check signal level on all the satellites, you should have mid to high 90s on almost all transponders you receive that are not spot beams. i aligned two 5 LNB dishes before 99 and 103 were turned on and those are the signal strengths received without any additional adjustment.

Eakes,

You got it!

I have found that if you take the time to make the mast plumb and stable....even if you have to use the monopoles. And you set elevation and tilt according to the published numbers for the 5LNB dish..you will get 103c by peaking the 101 on the az and giving a slight push west......toward Texas from here. I even got a new guy with a Birdog to check the signal after I had everything tight.......no correction needed.

Expecting techs to buy a Birdog ($500.00) without any increase in money was just like the free extra line for the recorders. Take one for the team!

I also offer tree pruning as an additional custom charge but believe it, the last MASTEC sub I worked for mentioned I was supposed to pass that money to the HSP to slice up and send back; slim chance.

This job has a case of the trees.

Joe

 

[joe diamond]

Thanks for the replies

IIP, I will set an appointment that I can be there to help in the alignment.

Evan_S, so the alignment process is to set the elevation for the "correct" value for my Lat Long then aim the azimith for 101. Peaking the signal by watching transponder strengths on a setup page for 101 then check the 99 and 103 birds?

Seaking,

The experts agree.* Know that there is a bit of lag time between when you hit the signal and when it changes on the receiver signal meter. It is around one second so if you work slow you will get it. Put someone in front of the set and have them practice checking the signal.....communicate with a cell phone and listen to the signal noise...turn it up........You want to have the rear bolts on the dish tight enough that the dish will not change elevation when you crank down on the rear bolts the final time. Just loose enough to move.

Think of books on a shelf..99....101..(only two degrees).....103c. Push a little to the west (right)-------If you are near D.C. your locals may be on 99 around PG county. I don't know the boundaries for locals on spot beams. Play with it.

Even if you are blocked on 110 & 119 you will have most of the good stuff;soaps & porn.

Joe

*AFTERTHOUGHT = There are probably a bunch of experts with company provided meters that do not agree that using this method is best but for $500.00 it works enough.

 

[ironwood]

OK, here I am again. Back in April I had the call about the free upgrade and DTV sent the local installer(MASTEC). The installer had been there previously taking care of some bad connectors on the service plan. When he remembered me and the location he said I still couldn't get the necessary signals.

see this thread for more detail http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=125337

Well now getting nearing to losing my HD reception I called DTV and asked what to do. They said the installers canceled the install after the supervisor reviewed the site and said the trees are blocking me.

currently I get 101 and 110 with good signal strength but not 119. ITs been that way for years.

DTV gave me the installers company name, number, tech's #, and supervisors name with instructions to call them.

Called them and explained the situation to the first "girl/phone order taker", she handed me off to a tech. explained it all to him, he got enough of me and got his boss. After explaining , how I cut trees to get the original single DTV satellite years ago and did my own install then years after that DTV installers came and upgraded me to the dual LNB then the 3 lnb and I have never gotten 119 but can see 101 and 110 just fine.

The "boss" tell me they have to use 119 to "align" the dish. I said "ah HA, that is the problem you don't know how to line the dish to other satellites." I told him I know and I guess he knows that 119 and 110 are soon to be not used for HD and I don't need to see those sat's. He finally said that he couldn't do anything without a new DTV upgrade order, but if I would call DTV and arrange that he would send his "best guy" and make it work.

So , now I have to call DTV and set up the new upgrade, again!

Aiming the dish, am I right in believing a good tech should be able to set a dish to see whatever sat's are visible? I have looked at the different elevations for 99, 101, 103 and 110. Seems to me everything I need is higher in the sky than 110's elevation and I can see 101 to 110 fine so 99 should be fine.

Got to get this ironed out before the NFL season begins!

I never install a dish if I cannot get 119. If a permanent structure is blocking that satellite its one thing. I can go with it and just make customer sign on paper that it is his request. But if we talking about trees blocking the satellite that is only few degrees away from all other satellites then we have a problem. Branches and leaves move and will definitely cause intermittent pixelation which is unacceptable.

 

[Seaking]

Seaking,

The experts agree. Know that there is a bit of lag time between when you hit the signal and when it changes on the receiver signal meter. It is around one second so if you work slow you will get it. Put someone in front of the set and have them practice checking the signal.....communicate with a cell phone and listen to the signal noise...turn it up........You want to have the rear bolts on the dish tight enough that the dish will not change elevation when you crank down on the rear bolts the final time. Just loose enough to move.

Think of books on a shelf..99....101..(only two degrees).....103c. Push a little to the west (right)-------If you are near D.C. your locals may be on 99 around PG county. I don't know the boundaries for locals on spot beams. Play with it.

Even if you are blocked on 110 & 119 you will have most of the good stuff;soaps & porn.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I am near Annapolis and have the Baltimore stations for locals.

Just got off the phone with Dtv and they have Mastec coming out on Friday after 4. so armed with your and eaks info and my past experience I hope to have new HD on friday night.

I'll update.

any other pointers for this are greatly appreciated. I'll have cold refreshments ready for the installer and cash for a tip.

 

[joe diamond]

Cool,

Your elevation is 38 degrees measured from a point between the tip of the LNB and the top od the dish if that helps you find limbs to remove.

There are some competent folks working at the MASTEC yard in Glen Burnie.
Good luck,

Joe

 

[Tom Robertson]

There are some very important reasons to get 119° that can only be solved by SWM or SL3. There are data streams that come from 101° that are mirrored on 119°. Lose access to that data stream too long reboots the receiver or (I think) cause the receiver to lose its authorization. And potentially miss recordings if in a DVR.

Since the Baltimore SD locals are on 101°, even if you can't get installed with an 5lnb dish, you soon will be able to plead for an SL3 install. (Don't know when they will be available in your area.)

Another route to consider is do the install yourself. While it might cost a few $$ in getting a dish, it might be less value than your time trying to convince someone to convince someone to go ahead and do the free install.

Good luck!
Tom

 

[Seaking]

Hey Joe, any names from the GB mastec group to mention.

and TOM
who would I complain to / ask about the SL3, what Dtv department. Customer retention to start.

Should I let the installer know up front that when he gets it working he will have a tip coming.

tic toc.....can't wait to have all those HD channels, YEAH!!! hope...hope...hope...

 

[joe diamond]

Hey Joe, any names from the GB mastec group to mention.

and TOM
who would I complain to / ask about the SL3, what Dtv department. Customer retention to start.

Should I let the installer know up front that when he gets it working he will have a tip coming.

tic toc.....can't wait to have all those HD channels, YEAH!!! hope...hope...hope...

Seaking,
Wish I could help with a GB MASTEC contact but it has been too long and turnover has cleaned out the place a few times. That is part of their problem. I don't know anybody who will work for the big M. I run into current techs.........some are way overqualified recent military guys.......who are quiting.

The cues from Tom Robertson are part of the reason this site is so valuable. His technical info is way above what is circulated to techs. A CSR even answered one of my installation questions during an installation with, " sorry , that is on a need-to-know basis" His point about the 119 mirror goes into by tool box.

About tipping........make them earn it. Clearly state what the problem has been and ask the tech to find a solution. From what has been said you are looking at an upgrade to get HD for the first time, right? If it gets as far as adding a receiver the tech will be on hold with DTV and the MASTEC call center for awhile. That is where the tip comes in.......probably no booze due to the company truck & a probable next job even after 4PM.

He can't move your tree or that of your neighbor but may find another place for the new dish. That will take time and is more like a reinstallation. That is where you start to think tip. Take down the old dish {extra}.......run more cable to the new dish location{extra}......install new dish {extra} HSPs just don't pay much for upgrades. Watch your watch and think tip.

You may need to cut trees and prune limbs.

Joe

 

[evan_s]

Hey Joe, any names from the GB mastec group to mention.

and TOM
who would I complain to / ask about the SL3, what Dtv department. Customer retention to start.

Right now it's just being released so probably isn't anyone you could complain to. It actually can't really be installed until D11 is up and functional which still hasn't happened. It is expected soon. Once d11 is up they should be able to start rolling out SL3's but we have no idea yet on what the qualifications would be for a new install or possible swap for someone who has lost los on 119.

 

[joe diamond]

Right now it's just being released so probably isn't anyone you could complain to. It actually can't really be installed until D11 is up and functional which still hasn't happened. It is expected soon. Once d11 is up they should be able to start rolling out SL3's but we have no idea yet on what the qualifications would be for a new install or possible swap for someone who has lost los on 119.

Evan,
I understood that the 110 & 119 were actually owned by Echostar (DISH) and DTV was planning to dump their usage when the d11 goes up. I assume the d11 launch location will not require repointing every DTV dish in Christendom. And I am curious how the phase III, sidecars & slimlines will fit into the mix.

None of this will help Seaking this week.

Joe

 

[Tom Robertson]

Hey Joe, any names from the GB mastec group to mention.

and TOM
who would I complain to / ask about the SL3, what Dtv department. Customer retention to start.

Should I let the installer know up front that when he gets it working he will have a tip coming.

tic toc.....can't wait to have all those HD channels, YEAH!!! hope...hope...hope...

Thanks for the very kind words, Joe_diamond.

Seaking, I'd try asking for installation tech support. They would be most aware of the SL3 deployment in your area, I should think. And most aware of the newest dish itself. Or they might be able to get a SWM installed, which would be just as good/slightly better as it would give you 110° for the short time you might want the MPEG2 HD there.

With any decent installation company, I'd even call the installation company prodding to see if they would be willing to use your house as a training opportunity on the SL3 (tho there really isn't any training that I am aware of for anyone who can install a normal 5lnb.)

Good luck!
Tom

 

[Tom Robertson]

Evan,
I understood that the 110 & 119 were actually owned by Echostar (DISH) and DTV was planning to dump their usage when the d11 goes up. I assume the d11 launch location will not require repointing every DTV dish in Christendom. And I am curious how the phase III, sidecars & slimlines will fit into the mix.

None of this will help Seaking this week.

Joe

Actually DIRECTV owns the 3 licenses for transponders are 110° and the transponders at 119°. Echostar has the rest. DIRECTV has no plans to release those licenses as they are used by many people for SD locals and for other things soon.

That said, many, many people will still be able to benefit from the SL3.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Seaking]

Seaking,
From what has been said you are looking at an upgrade to get HD for the first time, right?

You may need to cut trees and prune limbs.

Joe

I have been receiving HD for several years now with my Samsung model whatever. MPEG2 I guess.

As far as cutting trees, If i receive 101 and 110 now shouldn't my sight be clear for 99 and 103. 99 has a higher elevation at my location.

AND THANKS AGAIN TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!